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Chinese laws concerning assault, self defence, violence?

Chinese laws concerning assault, self defence, violence?

Postby ramsey » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:02 pm

Does anybody know anything about Chinese law concerning matters of assault/battery, self defense, weapons, etc...?

I've scoured the web looking for laws and consequences regarding various matters here in Shanghai, but I haven't found anything on this subject.

My wife was robbed the other day while walking home. Fortunately, they just took her phone and left running. I just want to know what my options are should the situation be worse and I'm there to do something about it- without having to do 15 years in a Chinese prison as a consequence.

From previous experience living abroad (South America) I learned that local authorities usually side with the locals (or whoever offers the biggest bribe) in these matters. Is Shanghai any different?
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Postby Andreas » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:33 am

It's called hit, and hit hard, and run. There is no rule of law in this country.
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Postby ziccawei » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:47 am

In order to start a roll of posts from people foaming at the mouth can I ask the question:

Do you think Shanghai is becoming more dangerous? Will muggings be a normal thing here in the future?
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Postby CoffeeHawk_0 » Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:59 am

what maybe helped lead to ridding the BaBaiBan are of these bad people in 2005/2006 was when ever one (usually a group of 3) was spotted, entire crowds of locals would surround them and yell "Thief! Thieif!". You could see the fear in the thief's faces and they always left in a hurry.

Once near Citic Square in Puxi I mob of locals actually beat one of the thiefs down. It was no small beating.
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Postby jasonnoguchi » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:02 am

Marakanis wrote:No, it's the same. You're on the losing end if fists start flying, best bet is to just grab the stuff back without doing any damage while looking intimidating and hoping they'll run. The funny thing about Shanghai is how little pressure you can apply to someone's arm or whatever, and how they'll instantly back off, start rubbing it and pointing at it and proclaiming how you've permanently injured them for life and they want compensation...

So yeah, do as little harm as possible, I have yet to meet anyone who actually wants the fight, they just want to get hurt a little bit so they can get money out of you. Some will go to great lengths to provoke you.


Totally AGREED!!!! NEVER get physical with a SHANGHAINESE! They will rip every cent out of you as long as you touched them! Even worse if that person has cancer or heart problems!

If it is a thief, make sure you rough him up, tie him to a lamp post before the police comes and run away. You are in the wrong roughing someone up even if that person is a thief.

Basically, the law here sides whoever SEEMS to have sustained the more serious injury.
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Postby ramsey » Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:29 am

Sounds grim.

So basically, if worse comes to worse, drag the perpetrator into a dark alley, choke him unconscious, somehow without leaving a mark, and if you hear the police coming, give yourself a black eye so it looks like you got the worse end of the deal?

On a slightly different note, I keep seeing local men publicly striking their wives/girlfriends in this town. The first time I saw it, I instinctively started moving in to tackle the guy. I had to hold myself back because I could see that turning real ugly real fast. Has anyone else seen this? Grown men hitting women in public. I don't care if it's "part of the culture" it's wrong and it's deplorable.
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Postby Zak101 » Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:39 am

Threadjack : following Ramsey's notes - and others previously posted.

Have a rather naive, yet somewhat sensitive and open-minded young Chinese lady (about 22 and 37 kg sopping wet) in a tutorial class. She has tattoos on her hands, an obviously visible whopper on her throat between her collar bones up to where an Adam's apple might be and another big one on her lower back.

We've had discussions about laser removal and skin grafts.... anyway... She confided last night that she'd dumped her boyfriend since he was handing out a few *too many* unwanted whacks.

To top it off, she suggested that she 'still loved him' and was prepared to go back.

That's when I explained with a finger drawn device on an outside wall about the vicious circle.

1. Violence. 2. Profound regret from the offender 3. Forgiveness from the victim 4. Life seems to be 'OK' for a while then suddenly back to phase 1 with a few more bruises.

I was intrusive, scornful, adamant and alternately compassionate - that she should never return. She comes to me seeking advice and I see (for her) the headlight of an oncoming train and let fly.

Scornful to the extent that I mentioned that to put herself back in that loop would be like a dog returning to it's vomit, to make my point crystal clear.

Also went on to chat about inappropriate emotional dependence, victim acceptance syndrome and her self esteem issues.

Fortunately she'll be leaving to start a 3 year course in Australia in Hospitality/F&B management in a few weeks, and I reiterated that the tattoos had to go if she were to be selected for a guest-facing management position in her desired 5 star career, or it'll be a Starbucks sandwich expert role (maybe) after half a million kuai spent Down Under.

Spoke to a colleague later about this - he's a self-confessed Manchester street rat, and he proposed a bit of Laowai vigilante payback activity, but then reminded me that the offender's daddy owns an illegal coal mine and has powerful mates in certain Government echelons, plus the offender knows the two of us. Could become really, really ugly.

[end threadjack]
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Postby jasonnoguchi » Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:53 am

One crazy thing about domestic violence is this... the police stays out of it as it is "not their jurisdiction". If you get involved in such a domestic dispute, you are in the wrong no matter what.
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Postby TrueNorth » Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:19 am

leidelaohu wrote:Practiically speaking, I think the dividing point between a chinese fire drill screaming match and actual court, jail and so on is broken bones. The police will try to make you pay damages even if the thief deserved it but won't get serious unless something is broken.

If you do hurt someone then you need guanxi.


Is that the reason Shanghai pedestrians don't respect oncoming pedestrian's right of way? A half year ago I've got tired of dodging oncoming pedestrians even when I was walking far right side of the sidewalk, and started defending my right of way resulting many bumps against them. :twisted:

For example a few days ago at night on Hengshanlu, a group of about six Chinese people spread out on the sidewalk and I was in the crush course with them. So I just kept walking on the far right side toward them. When I sense a crush is imminent I speed up because I'm a slightly built guy, I need fast speed to compensate my light weight. (E=MC*2) :idea:

My left shoulder bumped against a girl's, and she was knocked off her course, but I wasn't affected. However as she made a reflexive shriek, I looked back and saw that her entire group had stopped and were looking back at me. So I shouted “Make room for other people, OK?” and resumed my walk, and nothing happened.

That was an extreme case, but I bump on the street all the times even though in most cases my opponents dodge me at the last second. So far I've never lost this Chicken Game even against a far bigger and fatter guy, and nobody had called a name yet. :lol:

Am I playing with fire? :shock: Since I look like a Japanese (yes, I was born there), my situation and that of most of you may be different, but how do you deal with such situation?
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Postby woaihuan » Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:12 pm

Zak101 wrote:Spoke to a colleague later about this - he's a self-confessed Manchester street rat, and he proposed a bit of Laowai vigilante payback activity, but then reminded me that the offender's daddy owns an illegal coal mine and has powerful mates in certain Government echelons, plus the offender knows the two of us. Could become really, really ugly.

[end threadjack]


Contact a foreign news correspondent and get a story done about the illegal coal mine?

Or have him whacked? :shock:
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Postby findus » Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:29 pm

TrueNorth wrote:
leidelaohu wrote:Practiically speaking, I think the dividing point between a chinese fire drill screaming match and actual court, jail and so on is broken bones. The police will try to make you pay damages even if the thief deserved it but won't get serious unless something is broken.

If you do hurt someone then you need guanxi.

For example a few days ago at night on Hengshanlu, a group of about six Chinese people spread out on the sidewalk and I was in the crush course with them. So I just kept walking on the far right side toward them. When I sense a crush is imminent I speed up because I'm a slightly built guy, I need fast speed to compensate my light weight. (E=MC*2) :idea:

My left shoulder bumped against a girl's, and she was knocked off her course, but I wasn't affected. However as she made a reflexive shriek, I looked back and saw that her entire group had stopped and were looking back at me. So I shouted “Make room for other people, OK?” and resumed my walk, and nothing happened.

That was an extreme case, but I bump on the street all the times even though in most cases my opponents dodge me at the last second. So far I've never lost this Chicken Game even against a far bigger and fatter guy, and nobody had called a name yet. :lol:

Am I playing with fire? :shock: Since I look like a Japanese (yes, I was born there), my situation and that of most of you may be different, but how do you deal with such situation?


Ah, the plight of the Shanghai newbie :)

Take out your phone and start msging, not looking where you are going. They will move out of the way. Otherwise, slow down and let them move around you / move around each other. The alternative is to get more and more frustrated with 'stupid Chinese' (yes, lots of things are fcuking idiotic here). It's not worth it.

Chill.
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Postby woaihuan » Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:35 pm

:lol:
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Postby woaihuan » Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:37 pm

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Postby lideting482 » Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:10 pm

ramsey,

I did not read through all the comments. I just want you know what's a Chinese lawyer opinion on your question.

PRC Criminal Law does grant the right of reasonable sel-defence to the victim who is facing the violent crime. But only when satisfying certain conditions
(such as, the crime is ongoing, self defence must be in appropriate degree, etc), can the self-defence be regarded as reasonable sel-defence by judge. For reasonable sel-defence, no criminal liability.

I think in supper majority cases foreigners will be treated equally except the suspect has special relationship with top government officals.
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Postby Shangstar » Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:21 pm

OP, was your wife actually mugged (i.e. force threatened or used), or was she pickpocketed/theft?

Difficult to restrain yourself when you catch someone but you need to do it. Best bet is to rough them up, search their pockets for ID, find out who they are.....and tell them in no uncertain terms that you'll be paying them a visit soon.....unless they leave town in 12 hours. Or just scream XiaoTou and the locals may well help you out by giving the thief some "communal punishment" applied concurrently.

As for them not getting out of the way on pavements, I;m not bothered about that. There is no space here, and no spacial awareness. While stroking past a chinese guy definitely feels gay, try to put it out of your mind.

Never seen a husband bash his missus in Shanghai. The other way round, for sure yes. Interesting to know whether guys or gals would help out the husband in such a scenario of husband=beating
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Postby bleepingbleeper » Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:54 am

TrueNorth wrote:When I sense a crush is imminent I speed up because I'm a slightly built guy, I need fast speed to compensate my light weight. (E=MC*2) :idea:


sorry to be nitpicky, but it's F=ma for what you're referring to.
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Postby gino » Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:32 am

A Shanghainese friend of mine told me the following story.

A young guy on a bicycle hits a BMW 7 series, while the car is taking a right turn on the lights. Of course the BMW driver exaggerates the little scratch and a long discussion starts. The young guy on the bicycle finally asks the guy how much he paid for the car. After that he makes one phone call. After 30 min. or so a car comes and brings a suitcase with money and a sledgehammer. The young guy gives the suitcase to the BMW driver and asks the driver to take the money but in return he wants him to wreck the car…


If you still think you want to play Wim Diesel in this town get yourself the right sort of Guanxi.
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Postby Shangstar » Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:00 pm

so it was an insurance job?
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Postby gino » Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:48 pm

Shangstar wrote:so it was an insurance job?


.... wishful thinking ? ;)
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Postby Shangstar » Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:08 pm

true guanxi is normally acquired through blood I gather - as in family ties. It's difficult to buy it, and if you do, it will never be as strong as family blood guanxi. As foreigners it'd be hard to get it.
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Postby woaihuan » Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:12 pm

hire some associates that have some guanxi?
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Postby TrueNorth » Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:34 pm

findus wrote:
TrueNorth wrote:
leidelaohu wrote:Practiically speaking, I think the dividing point between a chinese fire drill screaming match and actual court, jail and so on is broken bones. The police will try to make you pay damages even if the thief deserved it but won't get serious unless something is broken.

If you do hurt someone then you need guanxi.

For example a few days ago at night on Hengshanlu, a group of about six Chinese people spread out on the sidewalk and I was in the crush course with them. So I just kept walking on the far right side toward them. When I sense a crush is imminent I speed up because I'm a slightly built guy, I need fast speed to compensate my light weight. (E=MC*2) :idea:

My left shoulder bumped against a girl's, and she was knocked off her course, but I wasn't affected. However as she made a reflexive shriek, I looked back and saw that her entire group had stopped and were looking back at me. So I shouted “Make room for other people, OK?” and resumed my walk, and nothing happened.

That was an extreme case, but I bump on the street all the times even though in most cases my opponents dodge me at the last second. So far I've never lost this Chicken Game even against a far bigger and fatter guy, and nobody had called a name yet. :lol:

Am I playing with fire? :shock: Since I look like a Japanese (yes, I was born there), my situation and that of most of you may be different, but how do you deal with such situation?


Ah, the plight of the Shanghai newbie :)

Take out your phone and start msging, not looking where you are going. They will move out of the way. Otherwise, slow down and let them move around you / move around each other. The alternative is to get more and more frustrated with 'stupid Chinese' (yes, lots of things are fcuking idiotic here). It's not worth it.

Chill.


Aha, joy of learning. :shock: I never get bored in this city (hell?) :lol:
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Postby TrueNorth » Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:27 pm

bleepingbleeper wrote:
TrueNorth wrote:When I sense a crush is imminent I speed up because I'm a slightly built guy, I need fast speed to compensate my light weight. (E=MC*2) :idea:


sorry to be nitpicky, but it's F=ma for what you're referring to.


It's a law of physics: Energy = Mass x Square of Speed. :idea: Let's say I weigh 60 Kg and walk 7 km/h, and my opponent 120 kg and 5 km/h. In this scenario my energy is 60 x 7 x 7 = 2,940 where is his is 120 x 5 x 5 = 3,000. So walking 40 percent faster than an opponent gives me almost as same energy as him weighing twice much. :D

Since there is little I can do in terms of outdoor sports in SH, I walk everywhere and have become a very fast walker. I've never been out-walked by anybody except for on a relatively long walk. :lol:
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Postby bleepingbleeper » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:59 am

TrueNorth wrote:
bleepingbleeper wrote:
TrueNorth wrote:When I sense a crush is imminent I speed up because I'm a slightly built guy, I need fast speed to compensate my light weight. (E=MC*2) :idea:


sorry to be nitpicky, but it's F=ma for what you're referring to.


It's a law of physics: Energy = Mass x Square of Speed. :idea: Let's say I weigh 60 Kg and walk 7 km/h, and my opponent 120 kg and 5 km/h. In this scenario my energy is 60 x 7 x 7 = 2,940 where is his is 120 x 5 x 5 = 3,000. So walking 40 percent faster than an opponent gives me almost as same energy as him weighing twice much. :D


yes, i think most people know E=mc2, but that formula refers to conservation of mass/energy more than it does to newtonian physics of mechanical motion.

using e=mc2 would calculate the inherent energy of the particles of your bodily (could be non-moving) mass, not kinetic (moving) energy. in the case of bumping someone on the road, newton's 2nd law F=ma (force=mass*acceleration) is more applicable.
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Postby TrueNorth » Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:40 am

bleepingbleeper wrote:
TrueNorth wrote:
bleepingbleeper wrote:
TrueNorth wrote:When I sense a crush is imminent I speed up because I'm a slightly built guy, I need fast speed to compensate my light weight. (E=MC*2) :idea:


sorry to be nitpicky, but it's F=ma for what you're referring to.


It's a law of physics: Energy = Mass x Square of Speed. :idea: Let's say I weigh 60 Kg and walk 7 km/h, and my opponent 120 kg and 5 km/h. In this scenario my energy is 60 x 7 x 7 = 2,940 where is his is 120 x 5 x 5 = 3,000. So walking 40 percent faster than an opponent gives me almost as same energy as him weighing twice much. :D


yes, i think most people know E=mc2, but that formula refers to conservation of mass/energy more than it does to newtonian physics of mechanical motion.

using e=mc2 would calculate the inherent energy of the particles of your bodily (could be non-moving) mass, not kinetic (moving) energy. in the case of bumping someone on the road, newton's 2nd law F=ma (force=mass*acceleration) is more applicable.


I see! I was so away from physics... :oops:
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Postby Cambronne » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:14 pm

Ah ah the beauty of ignorance combined with marketing (Einstein being mostly marketing, just like Che Guevara, almost same T-shirts anyway).
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