It has been suggested to me that I might wish to consider obtaining a 90 day 'L' visa (general tourist) double entry, renewable every 30 days.

In many ways, this would save a lot of problems and certainly the most immediate of them.

There are a number of questions governing my decision:

i) Is it still possible to change from an 'F' multiple to 'L' general tourist? Yet, the latest information concerning 'F' visas from Robnot indicates _not_ .

ii) I am also undertaking preparation eg. research for opening a business.

Therefore, I wonder about the relationship of the 'L' marriage visa to requirements for opening a business.

In other words, would opening a business be facilitated/ 'made easier' by a) moving from an 'L' marriage visa or b) moving from a 'Z' visa?

Sorry ATP, just posted on the other visa site. Suffice to say I today got my spouce visa granted in Tianjin, the wife's territory, and got 3 months, and got changed from F to L, which I understood could not be done, and will not have to apply for residence permit, ever, as can use her permanent resident certificate. Also was told by the officer, to apply thru him next time, and will get 12 months. I said I lived in Tianjin, as we can live in my wife's Govt. lease house, anytime. Forgot to mention our joint house owned in Shanghai. By the way cost for 3 months.. RMB 280.
Anyways, I am "rapped", as thought I may not even get the one month visa, they talk about now.

and will not have to apply for residence permit, ever, as can use her permanent resident certificate

What do you mean by that?

leidelaohu wrote:

ATP wrote:In other words, would opening a business be facilitated/ 'made easier' by a) moving from an 'L' marriage visa or b) moving from a 'Z' visa?

Makes no difference either way. Being "in process" of setting up a business carries no weight.

You can have every single duck lined up and all the fees paid, until the visa is in your hands it's too bad, so sad.

Conversely, setting up a business while on an L carries no penalty. Or it didn't before this latest nonsense ... I haven't heard of anyone getting into trouble for doing prep work on an L, it's one of those catch-22's that chinese officialdom revels in.

OK, being "in process" doesn't appear to be a problem-but there is the caveat.

Though, generally, when setting up a business does an 'L' marriage visa impose restrictions on /prevent this?

Or would a 'Z' be considered 'better'?

Or, is it that when setting up a business, neither of these visas have any relationship?

dfoo wrote:

and will not have to apply for residence permit, ever, as can use her permanent resident certificate

What do you mean by that?

Moaning Lisa doesn't often make sense. Why would he now?

Underhand: Have been told, as Tianjin is our place of residence, (or one of them), same for my "spouce", I can use her residence certificate as mine, without temporary residence permit, but this remains to be seen.

^ I severely doubt that. As a foreigner you are required to register your place of residence when:
- You get a new visa.
- You change your address.
- You re-enter the country.

It is also highly likely that you are technically supposed re-register if you go somewhere else within the country, and then return (for example, go to beijing, stay in a hotel for a couple of days, and then return to shanghai). However, I was told at my local police station not to do this.

There are other threads on this forum on this issue.

dfoo wrote:^ I severely doubt that. As a foreigner you are required to register your place of residence when:
- You get a new visa.
- You change your address.
- You re-enter the country.

It is also highly likely that you are technically supposed re-register if you go somewhere else within the country, and then return (for example, go to beijing, stay in a hotel for a couple of days, and then return to shanghai). However, I was told at my local police station not to do this.

There are other threads on this forum on this issue.

Dfoo is correct. I think Moaning Lisa Lee is confused.

underh20 wrote:^ In any event, it looks like you're SOL on the spousal visa thing and you need to think of alternative action.

Three things (Well, actually, 4 ... but the fourth may prove anatomically inconvenient for you) come to mind. First, just gather your documentation and go to apply for a spousal visa bypassing the information windows. The worst they can do is return your passport after 7 days with no new visa.

The second is to go to HK and get a fresh F visa to tide you over until after this period of visa instability ends.

Third would be to find a job that provides you a work visa. Stick it out with the job until the visa situation changes.

I have decided to apply for the 'L' marriage visa.

Though I have some time remaining until the expiry, I am thinking that
I should allow myself some time to organise things here in case I have to go to HK. So, I have decided to apply for the 'L' a bit 'early'.

What do you think, underh20? leidelaohu?

Permanent residence in China is only available to investors who invest $5 million or more in China. There are a few others who get it due to government connections. That's it. The government's idea is that China is too full already and does not need immigrants and should make them feel as unwelcome as possible.

I remember watching a special feature on the residence permit when it came out (CCTV-9, yes kill me) and there was some government official speaking and that was basically what he said, only in a more offhand and offensive manner.

vellocet wrote:Permanent residence in China is only available to investors who invest $5 million or more in China. There are a few others who get it due to government connections. That's it. The government's idea is that China is too full already and does not need immigrants and should make them feel as unwelcome as possible.

I remember watching a special feature on the residence permit when it came out (CCTV-9, yes kill me) and there was some government official speaking and that was basically what he said, only in a more offhand and offensive manner.

I believe - and can not verify - that Japan does not grant permant residency to too many foreigners, either. If you're married to a Japanese citizen, then things might be a little different.

Re. China and the granting of permanent residency to foreigners: in the broader picture, I believe that numerous western countries have a more liberal policy when it comes to marriage of a PRC national with one of their citizens, and the granting of permanent residency. The general perception, though, this is ostensibly 'tightening'.

Japan gives a spousal visa, which is not permanent but indefinite. They even allow a select few foreigners to nationalize, most famously the American sumo wrestler Akebono.

ATP wrote:

underh20 wrote:^ In any event, it looks like you're SOL on the spousal visa thing and you need to think of alternative action.

Three things (Well, actually, 4 ... but the fourth may prove anatomically inconvenient for you) come to mind. First, just gather your documentation and go to apply for a spousal visa bypassing the information windows. The worst they can do is return your passport after 7 days with no new visa.

The second is to go to HK and get a fresh F visa to tide you over until after this period of visa instability ends.

Third would be to find a job that provides you a work visa. Stick it out with the job until the visa situation changes.

I have decided to apply for the 'L' marriage visa.

Though I have some time remaining until the expiry, I am thinking that
I should allow myself some time to organise things here in case I have to go to HK. So, I have decided to apply for the 'L' a bit 'early'.

What do you think, underh20? leidelaohu?

You do not have to go to HK. The spousal "L" visa may only -- and I mean NO exceptions -- be issued by the Mainland PSB.

vellocet wrote:Japan gives a spousal visa, which is not permanent but indefinite. They even allow a select few foreigners to nationalize, most famously the American sumo wrestler Akebono.

Actually, they allow a lot of expats to nationalize as long as they meet the requirements (being famous not one of them) and give up their original citizenship.

vellocet wrote:Permanent residence in China is only available to investors who invest $5 million or more in China. There are a few others who get it due to government connections. That's it. The government's idea is that China is too full already and does not need immigrants and should make them feel as unwelcome as possible.

bullfeces in almost every aspect. Total bullfeces.

First of all, if applying under the investment category, the maximum necessary investment is $3 million and, depending on the geographical area and or business category in which you invest, could be as low as $500k.

Secondly, investment is but one of approximately 7 categories under which one could qualify for permanent residence.

If you meet the requirements, you'll be granted permanent residency. The problem is that very few who apply meet them.

Japan allows very, very few foreigners Japanese citizenship. It's not like the USA. I know, I used to live there, and knew tons of people living/married/etc. None of them were citizens, and they all laughed when I talked about it.

The government guy on TV said $5 mil. The thing is that a lot of investors aren't really interested in permanent residence due to the tax liability that it incurs.

vellocet, are foreigners required/allowed to join some local health insurance program?

no/yes but not state run

^ Exactly, Expats are not allowed to join the state-run insurance schemes.

vellocet wrote:Japan allows very, very few foreigners Japanese citizenship. It's not like the USA. I know, I used to live there, and knew tons of people living/married/etc. None of them were citizens, and they all laughed when I talked about it.

The government guy on TV said $5 mil. The thing is that a lot of investors aren't really interested in permanent residence due to the tax liability that it incurs.

Actually, Japan allows anybody who meets the requirements to be naturalized as a japanese citizen. I personally know people who have done it and most of them are just average people. Why some people don't apply is because there is a language requirement and the fact that you must renounce your original citizenship.

Kind of foolish to believe what some "government guy" says on CCTV. Have you been in China only 3 days?

leidelaohu wrote:

ATP wrote:I have decided to apply for the 'L' marriage visa.

Though I have some time remaining until the expiry, I am thinking that
I should allow myself some time to organise things here in case I have to go to HK. So, I have decided to apply for the 'L' a bit 'early'.

Sounds reasonable to me ... I'm a cheapskate tho, I'd probably run out most of the current visa. If they say no you have to leave either way, so why rush ?

Oh, you're thinking you can apply while you have three months left, then if it fails you still have the three months ? I don't think so ... they're more likely to cancel your original and give you a 'ten days to get out of Dodge' visa if they decide you can't have the spousal one. (Should be no problem with a spouse visa tho.)

True.

To avoid surprises, OP needs to make sure he meets the requirements to apply for the spousal L visa.

leidelaohu wrote:

ATP wrote:I have decided to apply for the 'L' marriage visa.

Though I have some time remaining until the expiry, I am thinking that
I should allow myself some time to organise things here in case I have to go to HK. So, I have decided to apply for the 'L' a bit 'early'.

Sounds reasonable to me ... I'm a cheapskate tho, I'd probably run out most of the current visa. If they say no you have to leave either way, so why rush ?

Oh, you're thinking you can apply while you have three months left, then if it fails you still have the three months ? I don't think so ... they're more likely to cancel your original and give you a 'ten days to get out of Dodge' visa if they decide you can't have the spousal one. (Should be no problem with a spouse visa tho.)

I anticipated the likelihood of the early cancellation. Hence my asking your opinion.

underh20 wrote:

leidelaohu wrote:

ATP wrote:I have decided to apply for the 'L' marriage visa.

Though I have some time remaining until the expiry, I am thinking that
I should allow myself some time to organise things here in case I have to go to HK. So, I have decided to apply for the 'L' a bit 'early'.

Sounds reasonable to me ... I'm a cheapskate tho, I'd probably run out most of the current visa. If they say no you have to leave either way, so why rush ?

Oh, you're thinking you can apply while you have three months left, then if it fails you still have the three months ? I don't think so ... they're more likely to cancel your original and give you a 'ten days to get out of Dodge' visa if they decide you can't have the spousal one. (Should be no problem with a spouse visa tho.)

True.

To avoid surprises, OP needs to make sure he meets the requirements to apply for the spousal L visa.

Given the present visa 'climate', I plan to go to the PSB in Pudong (again) next week, either by myself or with my wife, and get the spousal L application form/s. We'll study all requirements carefully. If satisfied, choose the right date to return - 'close' to the expiry date, give or take 2-3 weeks - bypass the enquiries section, and proceed to the deposit applications section. And hope (pray) long and hard in the interim.

The only problem with anticipating cancellation with around 2-3 weeks before visa expiry, is that my chances for the Z visa (which I have an offer for) will have been reduced to almost nil. I really don't know if the offer for the Z will be open or available post-Olympics. This is all really a bit of a crap shoot.

ATP wrote:

underh20 wrote:

leidelaohu wrote:

ATP wrote:I have decided to apply for the 'L' marriage visa.

Though I have some time remaining until the expiry, I am thinking that
I should allow myself some time to organise things here in case I have to go to HK. So, I have decided to apply for the 'L' a bit 'early'.

Sounds reasonable to me ... I'm a cheapskate tho, I'd probably run out most of the current visa. If they say no you have to leave either way, so why rush ?

Oh, you're thinking you can apply while you have three months left, then if it fails you still have the three months ? I don't think so ... they're more likely to cancel your original and give you a 'ten days to get out of Dodge' visa if they decide you can't have the spousal one. (Should be no problem with a spouse visa tho.)

True.

To avoid surprises, OP needs to make sure he meets the requirements to apply for the spousal L visa.

Given the present visa 'climate', I plan to go to the PSB in Pudong (again) next week, either by myself or with my wife, and get the spousal L application form/s. We'll study all requirements carefully.

It's a one-size-fits-all application and doesn't list the requirements for any specific form of visa.

underh20 wrote:To avoid surprises, OP needs to make sure he meets the requirements to apply for the spousal L visa.

underh20 wrote:It's a one-size-fits-all application and doesn't list the requirements for any specific form of visa.

Perhaps no surprise, I am beginning to feel a bit like I'm in a Kafka novel.

Meet requirements to apply for spousal L visa? vs. doesn't list the requirements for any specific form of visa.

My western-educated mindset says that somewhere there's got to be something that pinpoints spousal L visa requirements. Or is this readily explained by the fact of the existence of *another* form/document? Or is this another one of the lovely 'grey' areas as well?

ATP wrote:

underh20 wrote:To avoid surprises, OP needs to make sure he meets the requirements to apply for the spousal L visa.

underh20 wrote:It's a one-size-fits-all application and doesn't list the requirements for any specific form of visa.

Perhaps no surprise, I am beginning to feel a bit like I'm in a Kafka novel.

Meet requirements to apply for spousal L visa? vs. doesn't list the requirements for any specific form of visa.

My western-educated mindset says that somewhere there's got to be something that pinpoints spousal L visa requirements. Or is this readily explained by the fact of the existence of *another* form/document? Or is this another one of the lovely 'grey' areas as well?

Have you been in China only three days now?

Basically, if you need the requirements, that's what the little "information" window is when you go to the PSB.

There are numerous threads that have gone through this issue with a fine-toothed comb. However, to save you the hassle, the requirements are that you are:

1. *Have a Chinese marriage certificate;
2. **Your spouse has Shanghai hukou;
3. You have the proof of temporary registration obtainable at your local police station.

* If you were married outside of China, you must have your overseas marriage license authenticated by the Chinese consulate servicing the jurisdiction where the marriage license was issued.

** Generally, you can only apply for the spousal visa in the city where your spouse maintains their hukou.

underh20 wrote:Basically, if you need the requirements, that's what the little "information" window is when you go to the PSB.

There are numerous threads that have gone through this issue with a fine-toothed comb. However, to save you the hassle, the requirements are that you are:

1. *Have a Chinese marriage certificate;
2. **Your spouse has Shanghai hukou;
3. You have the proof of temporary registration obtainable at your local police station.

* If you were married outside of China, you must have your overseas marriage license authenticated by the Chinese consulate servicing the jurisdiction where the marriage license was issued.

** Generally, you can only apply for the spousal visa in the city where your spouse maintains their hukou.

Aha...!! Aha-aha-aha-aha!! ...and...aha! Thank you.

underh20 wrote:Have you been in China only three days now?

I may be as you so sweetly put it, 'an old fat tard', with the physique to match.

But, no matter how long one may have lived in China (and I have lived here as long or longer than you), the country has a way of reducing me to feeling that I am but three days old -- with diapers/nappies and dummy to complete the picture!!

ATP wrote: ... (and I have lived here as long or longer than you) ...

Twelve years and counting.

leidelaohu wrote:

underh20 wrote:Twelve years and counting.

You got a release date ? The Judge threw the book at me, got an indeterminate sentence

I used to have a release date, but somehow I screwed up some paperwork and agreed to a life sentence. There's still the possibility of parole, but they are pressing me to give up that right.

Yep, You are right "Under 20 IQ", I am confused. I am confused why so many "experts", offer definitave advice on visas, when the same advice does not apply to ANY two people.
I have just received my L spouse visa, changed from F, in Tianjin, and have 3 months at a cost of RMB 160, and the wife's Hukou was viewed, (which is also mine), and no temporary residence permit is required. ( I keep a copy in my passport). She does not need one, so neither do I. I also have the promise of a 12 months extension next time round.