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Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

The place to share news stories and discussions about them. News stories posted to other sections are typically moved here as well. Traditionally, the primary raison d'etre of this section was to post hard-to-access/find articles that often dissapear crossing the GFW. But please note subject and postings are subject to scrutiny.

Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby rickettyrabbit » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:11 am

Concealing gender for 30 weeks suggested

BY DEREK ABMA AND ROBERT HILTZ, Postmedia News
17 Jan 2012

It is hoped revealing sex later in pregnancy could stop practice of aborting females in Asian communities

An editorial in the Canadian Medical Association Journal is calling for doctors performing prenatal ultrasounds to conceal the sex of the baby for the first 30 weeks, to curb a trend toward “female feticide” in the Asian community.

While reaction to the idea of withholding such information from parents has been mixed, there appears to be broad agreement that the practice of female feticide should be eliminated.

“Female feticide happens in India and China by the millions, but it also happens in North America in numbers large enough to distort the male- to- female ratio in some ethnic groups,” said the editorial by interim editor- in- chief Dr. Rajendra Kale.

“A woman has the right to medical information about herself [ but] the sex of the fetus is medically irrelevant information — except when managing rare sex- linked illnesses — and does not affect care,” the editorial states. “The solution is to postpone the disclosure of medically irrelevant information to women until after about 30 weeks of pregnancy.”

Dr. Nahid Azad, president of the Federation of Medical Women of Canada, said if the problem is widespread the blanket policy is an effective way to combat feticide, but she added the Canadian Medical Association should undertake a study to determine where the practice is most prevalent in Canada.

“I cannot see only one organization or one specific policy would be able to tackle that,” she said. “If it’s widespread, if it’s a growing problem, then we do need to have some kind of blanket type policy for everyone. If there are pockets [ where it happens], and there are particularly some provinces [ where] this is being practised, or there is good documentation or understanding, that requires a much higher level of scrutiny.”

Dr. Shelly Ross, an obstetrician and international liaison for the FMWC, said it is not likely the policy would have any effect on the practice of feticide. “The rules, at least in B. C., are that we don’t tell them for 20 weeks,” Ross said. “But I find that in this modern day and age, if we say, ‘ No, we’re not going to tell you,’ [ the patients] will go out to the private [ doctor] and find out themselves.”

Ross stressed the organization is wholly against feticide, but she doesn’t feel extending the current time frame for keeping the gender secret would make any difference.

In an interview, Kale said 30 weeks was picked as an approximate time to start providing mothers information on their fetus’s sex because, after that point, it would be difficult for anyone to get an abortion without a good medical reason for doing so.


The Asian mania for having sons continues . . . and it's an abomination.
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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby Commodore » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:33 am

You can get the girl out of China, but you can't get China out of the girl.
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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby rickettyrabbit » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:48 am

I don't think many of the women really want those sex-selection abortions, do they??

I'm guessing it's pressure from husbands/family/culture more than women's free choices . . . I hope . . . ??
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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby look2me4guidance » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:12 am

If the 30 week suggestion was to go ahead it could also result in more unwanted babies, some being dumped or huge resentment by the parents towards the newly born.

This is a band-aid solution to an endemic cultural issue.
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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby highlander » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:11 am

So would you guys have the same opinion if it was Male Feticide more common?

I've read a few months back (in NYTimes or Atlantic) that opposite of what was expected (in the 60's/70's when the tech first came out) in the USA that right now a lot more male babies are being aborted then female babies for various cultural reasons by mainly White Americans. Is that a concern?

I think unless it became a national emergency or something the government should just shut the F@ck up and let each population group decide on it's own what best. Over time I think asians have adapted well into mainstream society (having no conflict in religion helps) and for better or worse will adapt the mainstream customs.
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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby rickettyrabbit » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:32 am

highlander wrote:So would you guys have the same opinion if it was Male Feticide more common?

I've read a few months back (in NYTimes or Atlantic) that opposite of what was expected (in the 60's/70's when the tech first came out) in the USA that right now a lot more male babies are being aborted then female babies for various cultural reasons by mainly White Americans. Is that a concern?

I think unless it became a national emergency or something the government should just shut the F@ck up and let each population group decide on it's own what best. Over time I think asians have adapted well into mainstream society (having no conflict in religion helps) and for better or worse will adapt the mainstream customs.


I'd be equally alarmed.

"Freedom" of people pursuing their own interests can cause externalities that affect everyone. Then, it's no longer simply individual freedom.
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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby KopyKatKiller » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:10 pm

rickettyrabbit wrote:I don't think many of the women really want those sex-selection abortions, do they??

I'm guessing it's pressure from husbands/family/culture more than women's free choices . . . I hope . . . ??
No. Sex discrimination against female babies is usually carried and promoted by women, not men. Just ask any Chinese couple if they'd rather a son or daughter. The women invariably all say a son, while the husbands prefer daughters more than sons. I have never heard a Chinese woman ay she wants a daughter in China, never.
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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby rickettyrabbit » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:15 pm

KopyKatKiller wrote:
rickettyrabbit wrote:I don't think many of the women really want those sex-selection abortions, do they??

I'm guessing it's pressure from husbands/family/culture more than women's free choices . . . I hope . . . ??
No. Sex discrimination against female babies is usually carried and promoted by women, not men. Just ask any Chinese couple if they'd rather a son or daughter. The women invariably all say a son, while the husbands prefer daughters more than sons. I have never heard a Chinese woman ay she wants a daughter in China, never.


Do you think that's because women who couldn't give their husband a son were often replaced by a younger woman? I've seen that many times in HK and China. If so, that's the kind of pressure I meant.

I've never talked to a Chinese woman who's had an abortion, but most of the western women I know who have done it regret it and never completely get over it.
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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby KopyKatKiller » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:25 pm

^^I've talked to Chinese women about abortion (4 of which had had one). I think it's about as a traumatic event for them as getting a tooth pulled.
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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby snoochtothedooch » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:11 pm

Sex education needs to be instated in schools here. Difficult to pretend people aren't fcuking when the population is over a billion.
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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby highlander » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:13 pm

It's too easy to generalize...my brother in law got married partly because the girl friend at the time did not want to get an abortion because she was afraid it might damage her from having kids in the future. They were about same age (18-20) and her family actually was more wealthy...so no ulterior motives.

I am generalizing myself but in general in the cities (less or no tight community/family) + communist government (so lack strong religion or other community groups) = easier acceptance of abortions....these two combinations is also why expats love China since easier to get girls in bed.
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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby PureXTC88 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:04 pm

Young mom cuts son's penis because she wanted a girl

http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/?i ... e=National

WTF is this world coming to?
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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby look2me4guidance » Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:34 pm

PureXTC88 wrote:Young mom cuts son's penis because she wanted a girl

http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/?i ... e=National

WTF is this Chinese world coming to?


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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby caisghost » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:46 pm

rickettyrabbit wrote:I don't think many of the women really want those sex-selection abortions, do they??

I'm guessing it's pressure from husbands/family/culture more than women's free choices . . . I hope . . . ??


I have two friends who work at an abortion clinic in America, both of whom are white but work in clinics with Asian-American doctors. One is an administrator, and one is a resident. The administrator works for a sister organization, and has heard the same thing from her employees.

Both live in an areaa with a lot of Asians and suspects this is a problem because they pretty much ONLY see married Asian patients who are aborting female fetuses. (Single Asian patients are like other single American women -- except they have markedly higher STD rates. That probably does come from male coercion, lack of power, and/or how they indirectly communicate trust in relationships.) The resident, M., thinks they get the initial ultrasound elsewhere because they are referred to her for an abortion and she doesn't tell them the gender. 80%+ of her patients in this category are aborting female fetuses. So there are some patients who are aborting fetuses for legitimate reasons, but they're in the minority.

As far as she can tell, the patients want the procedure as much as her other married patients do. IOW, they're not being forced and they're not as desperate as their poor or teenage patients. They know exactly what they're doing. They say all the right things, but she suspects that they're lying about the sex selection issues. That said, they're not lying about the things that make them malpractice risks, so they usually go ahead with it. Feminism in America is fundamentally about the individual's choice, even if that individual isn't foresighted enough to question their cultural upbringing.

The sister laws in America are seen as another incrementalist anti law. Providers hate them. As a rule of thumb, providers who are uncomfortable serving these women give them to female Asian-American providers who are more comfortable with the cultures. (This is currently what M. does.)

rickettyrabbit wrote:
KopyKatKiller wrote:
rickettyrabbit wrote:I don't think many of the women really want those sex-selection abortions, do they??

I'm guessing it's pressure from husbands/family/culture more than women's free choices . . . I hope . . . ??
No. Sex discrimination against female babies is usually carried and promoted by women, not men. Just ask any Chinese couple if they'd rather a son or daughter. The women invariably all say a son, while the husbands prefer daughters more than sons. I have never heard a Chinese woman ay she wants a daughter in China, never.


Do you think that's because women who couldn't give their husband a son were often replaced by a younger woman? I've seen that many times in HK and China. If so, that's the kind of pressure I meant.

I've never talked to a Chinese woman who's had an abortion, but most of the western women I know who have done it regret it and never completely get over it.


I think it's definitely the threat of divorce. I get the distinct impression that most men are lying when they say they want a daughter. The proof is in what you do, not what you say.

Statistically, most American women report feeling relieved after an abortion. It's also why such a high percentage of American women have repeat abortions in their lifetime instead of choosing to give birth the second time around. They just don't talk about it because of the abortion stigma. Similarly, the abortion stigma means that the ones who do talk about it are the ones who regret it the most.
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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby rickettyrabbit » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:47 pm

caigsghost wrote:I get the distinct impression that most men are lying when they say they want a daughter.


Did you mean Asian men, or all men?
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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby KopyKatKiller » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:54 pm

PureXTC88 wrote:Young mom cuts son's penis because she wanted a girl

http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/?i ... e=National

WTF is this world coming to?
Obviously women who want daughters here are insane...
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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby caisghost » Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:59 am

rickettyrabbit wrote:
caigsghost wrote:I get the distinct impression that most men are lying when they say they want a daughter.


Did you mean Asian men, or all men?


Asian men. The ones I've talked to about it looked disgusted or sad for a split second before trying to look happy.

In the West, the picture's more complicated. There's still a preference for boys among the lower classes and less well-educated segments of American society. It's split between a preference for girls and no preference in well-educated and upper-income segments of society. To me, the interesting question is why.

I think Western men, or at least well-educated and upper-middle class men, really do want daughters or don't care. For starters, most couples getting PGD in America have a dramatic preference for female embryos. However, that may be because they're extra-paranoid about sex-linked psychiatric disorders like autism and ADHD -- even when they don't have a family history or any risk factors for it.

Mara Hvistendahl emphasizes that these parents want kids who do well in school, are cooperative, etc., but I don't think she's painting an accurate picture here. Or more accurately, I don't think her sources have given her all of the relevant information. My friends who are OB/GYNs and reproductive endocrinologists tell me that affluent patients with infertility are their most paranoid and stressed out patients. My friends and I suspect these patients/parents are trying to "spin" it in the best possible way for themselves because they (incorrectly) believe that positive thinking has an impact on medical outcomes. I think that the ones who became parents are the victim of several cognitive fallacies concerning how the brain interprets past choices.
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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby bougie » Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:20 pm

KopyKatKiller wrote:^^I've talked to Chinese women about abortion (4 of which had had one). I think it's about as a traumatic event for them as getting a tooth pulled.


I agree with you. For 2 Chinese woman that I know had obortions, 1 being my good friend's wife, I think getting a tooth pulled or putting on a few kg is probably a more traumatc event
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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby anter » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:48 pm

Is it only an Asian preference.
I have a daughter but her father wanted a son/sons because he's a cattle rancher. He claimed, at the time of her birth, that girls grow up and leave while he thought that male children would stay on the land. There is a little truth to this but the trend on the past twenty years is for all children to leave farming families and go to the city. And that is in the West.

The Asian families in Canada are not restricted to the one child policy so why are they aborting females if they plan to have more than one child?

One of your points Caisghost about low socio economic families wanting males and middle and higher wanting girls, or not caring either way. There was some theory, maybe based on research, claimed the ends of the social (economic/education) spectrum finding it hardest to find mates, are-lowest socio economic males and the higher more well educated females. They are hardly likely to marry because females, in this instance, will not consider those males a good match.
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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby rickettyrabbit » Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:08 pm

anter wrote:The Asian families in Canada are not restricted to the one child policy so why are they aborting females if they plan to have more than one child?


I'm guessing they either want a boy first, or already have one or more girls and no boys.
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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby anter » Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:40 am

In China-
I'm not sure a morally influential argument can be made to change Asian people's attitude to what is obviously a culturally entrenched choice with economic implications behind it.

Significant economic imperatives/incentives need to be put in place by the government to address the implications of the gender imbalance and to try to redress this in the longer term.

In Canada
Withholding information from Canadian families will not stop Chinese people there finding out the gender of their baby. The answer in the longer term is economic.

Clear proof that it is both economically and socially advantagious to have female children.
Is that realistic and possible?
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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby rickettyrabbit » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:38 am

I think in Canada there's an even bigger trend towards gender-selective abortions among the Indian community. But at any rate, there are economic advantages apparent for having girls. They make up more than half of the university graduates in Canada now, although they're still lagging in average incomes. The difference will narrow when women in their 40s now reach 60. Girls who graduated from high school between 1965 and ~1975 were still setting their sights on becoming nurses, teachers, etc. The lower salaries of these women are weighing down average salaries of women. So the case is already there

I'm not sure the economic advantages of boys exist in China any more. But so much of China's culture is still "back on the farm" or "in the village". It will take a couple of generations for that to disappear.

I think part of the reason some doctors in Canada want to restrict this information is simply that they don't want to be part of the problem. That's always a start.
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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby anter » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:59 am

I think that a patient/ client is intitled to any and all information about their own body so cannot, for ethical reasons, agree with a doctor not disclosing the information.

Women making up the larger percentage of uni students, not just a Canadian thing but also in other countries. Day to day education structure operates in schools, then up the secondary and tertiary levels, largely a format i.e. sitting paying attention and verbal exchange, that suits females. Males find passive learning environments much more difficult.

In Australia men with trades are able to earn far more than women with degrees working in professions up to middle management.

The real cure, emancipated societies where gender does not deturmine social or economic status.
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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby rickettyrabbit » Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:03 pm

anter wrote:I think that a patient/ client is intitled to any and all information about their own body so cannot, for ethical reasons, agree with a doctor not disclosing the information.


I guess that depends on 3 things. 1. Whose body is it (the fetus, I mean)? 2. If the ultrasound is not expressly for sex determination, does the patient really have a right to incidental information? 3. If not for sex determination, can the clinic simply say "we're not sure" (which is probably true in many cases) and decline to speculate for liability reasons?

I think they can deny to comment and not violate the woman's rights provided the purpose is not sex determination.

anter wrote:Women making up the larger percentage of uni students, not just a Canadian thing but also in other countries. Day to day education structure operates in schools, then up the secondary and tertiary levels, largely a format i.e. sitting paying attention and verbal exchange, that suits females. Males find passive learning environments much more difficult.

In Australia men with trades are able to earn far more than women with degrees working in professions up to middle management.


True in Canada, too, but in a dramatically declining proportion of jobs. Those days are almost over.

anter wrote:The real cure, emancipated societies where gender does not deturmine social or economic status.


Agree.
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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby HuaiQiao » Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:10 am

I was smoking dope at 15ish and then dad comes home with some drunk friends

"i i didnt reallly want 2 u know, it just happened

carol consoles him : u shud have worn a condom "

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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby rickettyrabbit » Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:16 am

^ That's a wrinkle I missed in the "unauthorized biography" . . . I'll add that in, quotes and all.
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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby tylerdurden » Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:46 am

rickettyrabbit wrote:If the ultrasound is not expressly for sex determination, does the patient really have a right to incidental information? 3. If not for sex determination, can the clinic simply say "we're not sure" (which is probably true in many cases) and decline to speculate for liability reasons?

I think they can deny to comment and not violate the woman's rights provided the purpose is not sex determination.


I doubt that. Ultimately it is the patient who has contracted for delivery of a service, which is an ultrasound. It is not up to anyone else to make decisions about withholding information - the patient (or their legal guardian) is the only one who can decide.

It does not matter whether the government is ultimately footing the bill, or whether the test was ordered on the recommendation of a physician for the express purpose of clarifying a particular diagnosis.

The government could certainly legislate to overrule this general principle. I believe such legislation could then be challenged under constitutional laws regarding the right to freedom of information.

I personally believe that if one supports the "freedom of choice" principle usually cited in favour of legalising non-medical pregnancy terminations, then it's difficult not to extend that same argument to sex-selective termination.

In other words, distasteful though it may seem, women ultimately have the right to terminate their pregnancy on the basis of foetal gender, and they also have the right to seek that information.
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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby rickettyrabbit » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:46 am

tylerdurden wrote:
rickettyrabbit wrote:If the ultrasound is not expressly for sex determination, does the patient really have a right to incidental information? 3. If not for sex determination, can the clinic simply say "we're not sure" (which is probably true in many cases) and decline to speculate for liability reasons?

I think they can deny to comment and not violate the woman's rights provided the purpose is not sex determination.


I doubt that. Ultimately it is the patient who has contracted for delivery of a service, which is an ultrasound. It is not up to anyone else to make decisions about withholding information - the patient (or their legal guardian) is the only one who can decide.

It does not matter whether the government is ultimately footing the bill, or whether the test was ordered on the recommendation of a physician for the express purpose of clarifying a particular diagnosis.

The government could certainly legislate to overrule this general principle. I believe such legislation could then be challenged under constitutional laws regarding the right to freedom of information.

I personally believe that if one supports the "freedom of choice" principle usually cited in favour of legalising non-medical pregnancy terminations, then it's difficult not to extend that same argument to sex-selective termination.

In other words, distasteful though it may seem, women ultimately have the right to terminate their pregnancy on the basis of foetal gender, and they also have the right to seek that information.


The Society of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists of Canada agrees with you. But several provincial jurisdictions (they're in charge of health care treatment policy in Canada) say something like the Ontario College of Physicians and Surgeons:

"does advise its members that it is "contrary to good medical practice to use ultrasound only to view the fetus to obtain a picture or video of the fetus or to determine the gender of the fetus,"


http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Health/201201 ... z1ktgkQo9D

The Supremes Court of Canada says information determined in a medical exam cannot be withheld from a patient. (A little inconsistent considering that their biggest hit was "Stop in the name of love".)

No doubt, almost any person intent on learning the sex of the fetus can do so.

If female feticide gains a foothold in Canada, though, I'll bet we'll see legislative attempts to prevent it. So far, our laws don't adequately consider situations in which the relatively inconsequential actions of individuals have a long-term collective effect on society. Left to the choices of a population that strongly favours male babies, this would be a perfect example of where the law needs to consider the aggregate effect of individual actions.
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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby tylerdurden » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:10 pm

Personally I don't see the problem with having more men than women.

Think of it as a natural form of population control, not to mention eugenics.

And all without having to introduce any new laws!
Everything belongs to mainland china, everything was invented by mainland china, everything bad in mainland china was caused by laowai and China has 5 million years of culture. -News by KKO
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Re: Doctors Move to Prevent Asian Female Feticide in Canada

Postby the_librarian » Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:55 pm

While the intention is good, concealing the gender for up to 30 weeks doesn't target the underlying cause of the problem. Many policies are ineffective because they are quick solutions. They aim for superficial changes and quick results by treating people like children, that is by taking away their choice by preventing access to information or service. It's not changing the moral values of people who see nothing wrong with terminating pregnancy based on gender.
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