Kiwi wrote:

Gzone wrote:the boss and partners responsible for this mess have destroyed the good name of KaiEn, It was and will always be remembered (for the most part) as having been an excellent English language training center.

Huh? I thought it had notoriously low standards?

I remember that back in 2003 my flatmate (who had this odd knack for getting sacked from teaching gigs) could always count on Kaien as the employer of last resort.

Kiwi,

Kaien is/was the recruiting ground for senior teachers. people whos been teaching for a long time in shanghai would know how many teacher trainers then went on to become academic managers in other schools.

Kaien only pays an average wage to its teachers but the reason why teachers like to join kaien is because Brian really knows what he is talking about in terms of second language acquisition, classroom management, board work etc. he friggin wrote his own text book and design his own thing (which doesnt in itself mean its the **** but goes to show his 20+ years of teaching and his masters degree in education) please name another owner/managing director for any other school in shanghai who is able to align his entire company towards the objective of teaching well.

Kaien has a close rate (number of people coming into the branch and number of cotract signed) close to 2:1. not because kaien has excellent sales people but when they describe what it is they did, students are often amazed at how different kaien is from the other schools.

or perhaps it was the marketing director who did an outstanding job in acquiring good lead sources under the circumstances (Alex - the CEO monopolizing his marketing budget, rendering his marketing plan useless)

Bit of an update for anyone who is still interested or still cares about the situation for us KaiEn teachers.

I have been away from Shanghai for a bit less than two weeks but apparently not a whole lot has happened in the meantime.

We still havent been released from our contracts. So for those of us who have Foreign Expert Certificates, Fulltime contracts and Z visas, this lack of release means we are unable to sign a new contract to begin working fulltime again.

YES KaiEn is closed down, but NO we have not been formally told that we no longer work for the school and NO we have not been released to go out and seek alternative employment.

In the Shanghai Daily, a Shanghai Education Administration representative was quoted as saying "the teachers and students will be protected" however this has not happened. Local staff are contractually employed by a local human resources firm/payroll company (call it what you will) and have been paid outstanding wages along with compensation. They were protected and were treated well, with prompt handling of their cases and grievences.

The foreign teachers, and I really just want to talk in this time about the fulltime teachers, on contracts, with work status' and with Foreign Expert Certificates (though I do care about all teachers, obviously) have not been protected.
We received what ammounted to 30 percent of 1 month's salary before tax. We signed small contract/receipts which stated we were "borrowing" the money from an agency affilliated with the SCG.

From this time there has been no direct communcation from Chinese partner representatives (JianGong/SCG) to foreign teachers. They have preferred to contact former local staff to pass on messages for them.
I believe they had arranged a meeting for last wednesday 30th December to discuss reopening the school, but this meeting was abruptly cancelled by them at the last minute and the news of it was passed on via, again, a local staff member who now has a different job.

Since that time there has been no information given to us teachers about the situation or the intentions of JianGong/SCG representatives.

Here are some of the most recent things I have learned (though like I said, nothing has been heard from the SCG people since the late cancellation of last weeks' meeting) :

They would like to reopen the school and have teachers sign new contracts.
They are calling for all students to contact a number and register in order to better handle the students' cases.
They are saying that (now this is second hand information, as is much of the information I have received from my colleagues, and cannot be verified by myself) they are in no way obligated to pay outstanding wages to any foreign teachers and that the money they gave us was an emergency relief payment "borrowed" only. which leads me to think that I could be asked to repay this money someday. Or should the school actually be reopened, that I would perhaps have this money deducted from my salary at some point.

Now I would at this time like to add that I do have my foreign expert certificate. On my Foreign Expert Certificate the name of my employer (written in Chinese) is "The Shanghai Construction Group Company". There is, to the best of my knowledge, no reference to KaiEn on the document at all.
So If I were to take this document to the Shanghai Human Resource office HQ and ask them to kindly tell me who I am legally employed by, who my employer is and who my visa is sponsored by etc.. then quite obviously they would tell me it was The Shanghai Construction Group Company.

The Education Administration of Shanghai said we would be "protected".
The JianGong/SCG (who I am legally employed by, and whose name is on my foreign expert certificate) says they are "not responsible for paying our owed wages".
We are still owed back pay and technically we are still working for them as none of our contracts have been terminated.

All I know is that I want to go back to work, I want to either continue teaching at KaiEn, and help the SCG people to rebuild the school OR move on and find another job.

I cant do either.

Who did you receive your salary from before...SCG or the school? If from SCG, then I would think they're still obligated to pay your salary. Sure Kai En took off, but that's between SCG and Kai En. Thought I read in the Erex Chen thread that the human resource companies can be held liable under the new labor laws...its buried somewhere in that long thread.

Why not seek legal counsel as a group?

MoonOverMiami wrote:Who did you receive your salary from before...SCG or the school? If from SCG, then I would think they're still obligated to pay your salary. Sure Kai En took off, but that's between SCG and Kai En. Thought I read in the Erex Chen thread that the human resource companies can be held liable under the new labor laws...its buried somewhere in that long thread.

Why not seek legal counsel as a group?

KaiEn's "Finance Department" paid us usually. And I use the terms "paid us" and "usually" very loosely. then there were times when the money seemed to have come out of Brian or Alex's pocket (allegedly).
I feel slimy at the mere thought of touching anything from their pocket.

You seen the work that Shanghai Construction Group did with the bridge recently, didnt you? Consider yourself" filler for the facade"!

Found the post regarding staffing firms...

http://www.shanghaiexpat.com/MDForum-vi ... -450.phtml

erexchen wrote:That's fine.

According to Pallyc, she is an English teacher for a company who send teachers out to state schools in Shanghai. The contract signed was from September 2008 to June 2009. However, the company have just informed her that the school she work at want to change the teacher therefore they have terminated the contract with one month's notice.

Pallyc felt that it was wrong as her contract is until June and the company could have put her in another school. It also says in the contract that the company can cancel the contract with a written notice if she does not fulfill the contract obligation according to the terms stipulated and failed to amend after they pointed it out. Pallyc said she had fulfilled the contract obligation and done nothing wrong.

For her situation, since I have not reviewed her contract, so I just make some comments for reference:

a) About her company. The company in above case is a special employer, which can also be called staffing firm under the Employment Contract Law, which is established and engages in business of placing employees to other company. The staffing firm shall sign employment contract with the employee and the staffing firm may also need to sign agreement with company who may use its employee.

b) The employee's right. The employee may be placed by the staffing firm to other company for work. However, during the period when there is no work for the employee, the staffing firm shall pay compensation to the employee. For local Chinese, such compensation shall be the minimum monthly salary which is published by local government. For expat, I think you shall discuss this amount with the staffing firm in advance and include this in the contract;

c) The staffing firm's right of termination. For expat, the termination condition can be discussed and included in the contract. If Pallyc think her employer has no right to terminate in advance, she can file an arbitration.

Don't know if any of this is applicable to your situation, but its worth looking into.

Here is a new update for anyone still following the plight of the, as yet, still unpaid, unlucky KaiEn teachers.

I think the theme for this post shall be "If it connects to the government, it is untouchable"

Today teachers once again came together to pay a visit to the Shanghai Labor Bureau main office on Anyuan road.
We took with us any and all available documents to try to help us in the registering of a "Class Action legal Suit" against the Chinese partner company "SCG" (Shanghai Construction Group Company) and JianGong school. (which is also a KaiEn partner and which is now in the process of negotiating with landlords to reopen one of KaiEn schools branches, in the hopes of continuing classes, and has almost finished registering all of the students currently still owed money by KaiEn)

We took with us any and all items, items which we deemed neccessary in order to lodge the report, start the process and begin the legalities of such a thing.

Things taken consisted of items such as passports, contracts, payslips, Foreign Expert Certificates etc etc.

Things took a turn for the exasperating when we were asked to provide all of our Foreign Expert Certificates. And that if we could not do so, we could not lodge our class suit.

As some of you, those who may have been closely following this case may well remember, KaiEn has been locked down.
The offices shut tight. the HR staff told (or perhaps threatened) by the SCG people not to, under any circumstances give back the foreign teachers' FECs because "they (SCG) want to keep them, they want to keep the teachers, they want to use the teachers again in the future"
When I say locked down tight I mean we cant even get our own property out of that office.
And when I say they want to use us, please dont forget that they still havent paid us the owed money, and havent told us if they intend to or not.

Police have a small group formed, responsible for this case, and in order to get anything out of the now closed Xujiahui Branch of KaiEn's staffrooms or offices; to get anything back, teachers are asked to "come in to a special police branch, sit down, talk to an official, who then will talk to another official, who then will ask the person who has authority to consider letting you get your things back (if that person is actually in the office at that time)"

One such thing, property not of KaiEn managment or staff, property not of the Shanghai police, the Jianke building manager, the ayi who used to clean the toilets in the mornings and certainly not property of the SCG at all - Is the teachers' FEC (Foreign Expert Certificates). The documents which most teachers need - to get a new job (or be released from in order to do so) and which all teachers need to provide to prove a working contractual relationship with KaiEn/Shanghai Construction Group.

We need this, and some teachers need also at least one copy of their contract (hello KaiEn HR staff, thanks for that). Without these valuable items the officials at the Labor Bureau are not willing to help us. (and by "not willing to help", I mean: Found the idea quite laughable and didnt even want to accept the paperwork from teachers who DO have all the correct items or lodge the reports of thse teachers who DO have their FEC and DO have contracts, because quote "you could try, but the case would almost certainly be rejected" )
The fact that they didnt even try was more insulting than telling me that my case would almost certainly fail. The fact that they seemed defensive and aggitated that we came in as a group, to their office, the only office in Shanghai which handles the labor disputes of foreigners, the fact that they looked for reasons to not take our case was just rude.

Not trying, not doing your job, not wanting to take a report from a group of neglected foreigners who have been ripped off, who have been denied access to their own property, have been told to wait and wait, and not given a straight answer, not doing what society expects you to do, not even doing what common decency tells you to do. Is this how things work? perhaps Yes. Incredibly, perhaps (world EXPO 2010) that is how things (world EXPO 2010) work here in Shanghai (world EXPO 2010)

We tried to regroup, look at our options and went to our now closed down HQ to ask police to help us get our FECs back.
If this is all we need to provide in order to establish our employment status' and file our case against those Chinese partners, then surely we should get them back. After all, they are nobodies property but our own. Right?
Wrong. the police are stonewalling and passing the buck. (no surprises). they tell us to contact someone who tells us to contact someone who tells us to explain our case so that they can pass it on and pass it on and then consider it. Surely there is an easier way to do things. Rght?

Wrong. They have been told by SCG that these documents are not to be taken away. Because, and I repeat, they dont want us to have OUR FECs because they want to KEEP US. (without paying us or contacting us)

So where does that leave US? We are now 3 days away from a month in limbo. With no clear decision yet made by SCG (even after 1 month). Without having been formally released from our contracts or given our back pay. (now from November to January = 3 months) Without having been treated with the care and consideration one would expect from partners of the KaiEn school - Shanghai's Education Administration. Shanghai Construction Group Company.
Without having been met with or contacted regulary to be kept appraised of any new decision made at all!

Where exactly does it leave us teachers?

We who now have less than a week to file our legal case or the time period which legally we have to do so will be up.
We who cant file our case without our FEC because they are being witheld from us.
We who still have no jobs and no income.

Where does that leave us?

If it is connected to the government. then it all washes away I think.

It snowed a little today. I remember it clearly, but I cant see it around me anymore. So it might as well not have snowed today at all. Right?
If I put that snow out of my mind completely, and wait long enough. Then that snow truly wont even have existed at all! Right?

So... I guess that it leaves us completely unprotected. And leaves us little more than hoping that the Chinese partners do the right thing.

Welcome to China

This is typical of how Chinese business is conducted here whether it be English schools or manufacturing. I'm sorry to say this but as a rule of thumb when dealing with Chinese companies you must assume you are in the process of being cheated and take the necessary steps to limit your exposure. If nothing bad happens well and fine, but when push comes to shove you are on your own, you mean nothing to them.

I feel sorry for your plight and I hope your story could get the same air time as all the "China is wonderful" stories.

Last time I checked (as GM of a WFOE dealing with bad employees) the employee was always right according to the labour bureau and could make whatever ridiculous claim, win arbitration then happily accept a lawsuit (all evidence against them) and still not lose. The story seems quite different when going against a local firm.

^ Magic word WFOE

Sorry to see you've been stonewalled.

Consult with a lawyer and see if filing a complaint with the central court system (equivalent to a civil lawsuit) would help your cause. This means bypassing the Labor Bureau arbitration, which shouldn't matter considering they're powerless to help you. Just hope you documented their inability to help you resolve the situation by writing down the time, date, conversation, and person you have discussed this with.

Gzone wrote:Here is a new update for anyone still following the plight of the, as yet, still unpaid, unlucky KaiEn teachers.

I think the theme for this post shall be "If it connects to the government, it is untouchable"

Today teachers once again came together to pay a visit to the Shanghai Labor Bureau main office on Anyuan road.
We took with us any and all available documents to try to help us in the registering of a "Class Action legal Suit" against the Chinese partner company "SCG" (Shanghai Construction Group Company) and JianGong school. (which is also a KaiEn partner and which is now in the process of negotiating with landlords to reopen one of KaiEn schools branches, in the hopes of continuing classes, and has almost finished registering all of the students currently still owed money by KaiEn)

We took with us any and all items, items which we deemed neccessary in order to lodge the report, start the process and begin the legalities of such a thing.

Things taken consisted of items such as passports, contracts, payslips, Foreign Expert Certificates etc etc.

Things took a turn for the exasperating when we were asked to provide all of our Foreign Expert Certificates. And that if we could not do so, we could not lodge our class suit.

As some of you, those who may have been closely following this case may well remember, KaiEn has been locked down.
The offices shut tight. the HR staff told (or perhaps threatened) by the SCG people not to, under any circumstances give back the foreign teachers' FECs because "they (SCG) want to keep them, they want to keep the teachers, they want to use the teachers again in the future"
When I say locked down tight I mean we cant even get our own property out of that office.
And when I say they want to use us, please dont forget that they still havent paid us the owed money, and havent told us if they intend to or not.

Police have a small group formed, responsible for this case, and in order to get anything out of the now closed Xujiahui Branch of KaiEn's staffrooms or offices; to get anything back, teachers are asked to "come in to a special police branch, sit down, talk to an official, who then will talk to another official, who then will ask the person who has authority to consider letting you get your things back (if that person is actually in the office at that time)"

One such thing, property not of KaiEn managment or staff, property not of the Shanghai police, the Jianke building manager, the ayi who used to clean the toilets in the mornings and certainly not property of the SCG at all - Is the teachers' FEC (Foreign Expert Certificates). The documents which most teachers need - to get a new job (or be released from in order to do so) and which all teachers need to provide to prove a working contractual relationship with KaiEn/Shanghai Construction Group.

We need this, and some teachers need also at least one copy of their contract (hello KaiEn HR staff, thanks for that). Without these valuable items the officials at the Labor Bureau are not willing to help us. (and by "not willing to help", I mean: Found the idea quite laughable and didnt even want to accept the paperwork from teachers who DO have all the correct items or lodge the reports of thse teachers who DO have their FEC and DO have contracts, because quote "you could try, but the case would almost certainly be rejected" )
The fact that they didnt even try was more insulting than telling me that my case would almost certainly fail. The fact that they seemed defensive and aggitated that we came in as a group, to their office, the only office in Shanghai which handles the labor disputes of foreigners, the fact that they looked for reasons to not take our case was just rude.

Not trying, not doing your job, not wanting to take a report from a group of neglected foreigners who have been ripped off, who have been denied access to their own property, have been told to wait and wait, and not given a straight answer, not doing what society expects you to do, not even doing what common decency tells you to do. Is this how things work? perhaps Yes. Incredibly, perhaps (world EXPO 2010) that is how things (world EXPO 2010) work here in Shanghai (world EXPO 2010)

We tried to regroup, look at our options and went to our now closed down HQ to ask police to help us get our FECs back.
If this is all we need to provide in order to establish our employment status' and file our case against those Chinese partners, then surely we should get them back. After all, they are nobodies property but our own. Right?
Wrong. the police are stonewalling and passing the buck. (no surprises). they tell us to contact someone who tells us to contact someone who tells us to explain our case so that they can pass it on and pass it on and then consider it. Surely there is an easier way to do things. Rght?

Wrong. They have been told by SCG that these documents are not to be taken away. Because, and I repeat, they dont want us to have OUR FECs because they want to KEEP US. (without paying us or contacting us)

So where does that leave US? We are now 3 days away from a month in limbo. With no clear decision yet made by SCG (even after 1 month). Without having been formally released from our contracts or given our back pay. (now from November to January = 3 months) Without having been treated with the care and consideration one would expect from partners of the KaiEn school - Shanghai's Education Administration. Shanghai Construction Group Company.
Without having been met with or contacted regulary to be kept appraised of any new decision made at all!

Where exactly does it leave us teachers?

We who now have less than a week to file our legal case or the time period which legally we have to do so will be up.
We who cant file our case without our FEC because they are being witheld from us.
We who still have no jobs and no income.

Where does that leave us?

If it is connected to the government. then it all washes away I think.

It snowed a little today. I remember it clearly, but I cant see it around me anymore. So it might as well not have snowed today at all. Right?
If I put that snow out of my mind completely, and wait long enough. Then that snow truly wont even have existed at all! Right?

So... I guess that it leaves us completely unprotected. And leaves us little more than hoping that the Chinese partners do the right thing.

dude, it's those white fat ones who stoled everything.... now you are try to ask the chinese to give you what was stolen.... kinda funny
how about the chinese staff... and all those young students who lost months of their parents 3000 kuai a month salary to this scam...and who will have an everlasting memory stain of how evil the world is....

like i said all along.... stay away from the white fat ones... origin of evil.

here's an idea.... take a trip to Hong Kong and meet with the South China Morning Post... See if they will print your story... also many "western" news outlets such as CNN and Washington Post have branches there... Get the foreign press involved and you may see some movement from the Chinese

vcxz wrote:
dude, it's those white fat ones who stoled everything.... now you are try to ask the chinese to give you what was stolen.... kinda funny
how about the chinese staff... and all those young students who lost months of their parents 3000 kuai a month salary to this scam...and who will have an everlasting memory stain of how evil the world is....

like i said all along.... stay away from the white fat ones... origin of evil.

What do you mean exactly?

The Chinese staff and teachers all got their pay plus compensation.
The students are all being registered and being given forms to fill out to state what each student was owed and whether or not they want to continue class again or have the money returned to them in the future.
The students who we teach are adults not children.
Most of these students want to see their teachers treated fairly because they are loyal to them and hope they can go on with our lives.
Your idiotic statement shows just how little of this story you know or understand.
BTW, my employer is SCG (Fat Chinese ones). Just so you know. Now go back to your bag of chicken feet and stop talking about things you dont understand.

Now go back to your bag of chicken feet and stop talking about things you dont understand

Yeah way to go buddy, make a sh*tty, near racist comment in a public forum when you are looking for sympathy. VCXZ is right, you are trying to apply a western construct to a chinese situation. You have no concept of the law, for one, and you need to get professional help.

1. the FEC belongs to the issuing party, rather like a passport, because it's a government document does NOT mean it belongs to you. Some companies allow you to keep them, some don't, but bucko,, it's NOT yours. So stop stomping your little foot about it. Sticking out your lower lip and demanding things that are incorrect is why officials are laughing at you.

2. You marched into the administration offices as a group, en mass, assuming that would give you some leverage, exactly the WRONG way to deal with the chinese, particularly at an official level. Umm,, pssst kid, here's a secret for you, the chinese do NOT like group demonstrations of discontent. A group of more than three represents a threat, you were therefore fobbed off and given little sympathy and even less information.

3. Being on a public forum board and insulting (or attempting too) both the Construction Group (fat Chinese) and another poster who may or may not be chinese (jeeze chicken feet? That's the best you got?!), when this board is most certainly being monitored by your good "friends" the former teachers at Kai En, is a pretty stupid thing to do, insulting someone publically in china, when one pretends to be such a caring individual who "loves china, loves the chinese" is kinda poorly thought out don't ya think?

You sir, have drunk the koolaid. For you there is no difference in the Construction company, and in the vile actions of the people who got on planes with the money and went away. OF COURSE the locals are going to take care of the chinese staff, the students however, will never see a refund, those who sign up for new classes MIGHT get some new classes but for the construction company to issue a refund means they accept liability and once they open that gate the flood will start, the printers, the landlords, the teachers etc.

Kai en teachers particularly those who were not on the corporate side were selected for their ability to do what they were damn well told. It's been known in this city for as long as there have been teachers. and you are ALL shining examples of that, without contract copies, FEC's in hand and documents to protect yourself, you were led, you were compliant and you didn't ask questions,,, the perfect Kai En employee.

What Kai en did was wrong, but you will not find compensation if you continue to mire yourself in this western mindset to solve the problem, you are NOT in a western country, haven't you got proof of that enough yet?!

Get off your ass, and apply your energy to finding someone to represent you all, someone who CAN navigate the chinese system, and stop expecting sympathy when you are making newbie mistakes in dealing with the the chinese, you've had some good advice, you continue to whine. GET over it, and for pity's SAKE stop doing things on a public forum that can be held against you and potentially the rest of the group,

Shanghai Daily
Stranded foreign teachers appeal for pay

By Liang Yiwen | NEWSPAPER EDITION
2010-1-12 00:00

A GROUP of foreign English teachers went to the Shanghai Labor Arbitration Committee yesterday to complain about outstanding salary still unpaid since the sudden closure of the Kaien English Training Center.

Kaien, one of the city's biggest language training institutes, shut down unexpectedly in mid-December, leaving hundreds of students and teachers in the lurch.

Ten foreign teachers went to the labor board to apply for government meditation, saying they cannot reach the Irish founders or the Chinese partner, a training school affiliated with the Shanghai Construction Group.

The teachers are owed at least two months' salary ranging from 12,000 yuan (US$1,750) to 40,000 yuan, or higher.

"It was a very sad Christmas," said Seth Holton, a foreign teacher at the center. He came to the city to earn tuition for his master degree studies.

"We had no money to enjoy food or buy gifts for our family members and friends. We are worried about being kicked out of our apartment."

One teacher expects to become a father in March. But now he is supported by his Shanghai wife's parents. Another teacher's marriage plan has been disturbed.

Some foreign teachers have left the city because of the difficult circumstances. Others can't find new jobs because their Foreign Expat Certificates are kept by the language training institution and they don't have the required release letter from the company.

Meanwhile, Chinese teachers and students also are anxiously waiting for lost salary or tuition or, if possible, the restoration of courses.

They have not received any information yet.

The Shanghai Education Commission asked the Chinese partner, the SCG school, to handle the case after the sudden closure last month.

But no new progress has been achieved in the past three weeks.

yeah.. everybody loses here.. probly even SCG... as their part of the $ was probly also taken away by the 3 fat white theives.. hehe

only thing to do is go after the theives. they started in asia, they will be in asia. most likely in TW/HK/macau area. theres more than 10 of ya... go after them
kick some ass

They are probably in Thailand.

Surrounded by LBFM's.

^ Light Brown Female Men?

Tigger please....

sinbad is spot on. Get some local representation between you (if you can afford it) and get on with looking for another job, unless you want to go back and work for them.

sinbad wrote:

Now go back to your bag of chicken feet and stop talking about things you dont understand

Yeah way to go buddy, make a sh*tty, near racist comment in a public forum when you are looking for sympathy. VCXZ is right, you are trying to apply a western construct to a chinese situation. You have no concept of the law, for one, and you need to get professional help.

I was under the impression this was an Expat forum. So calling people "Fat White Ones" seemed fairly antagonistic.

Be precious if you want. If it serves you to do so. You arent in this situation and dont really know enough about it to judge me.

Misteral wrote:get on with looking for another job

Misteral, that cannot be done in China until they get the release letter. They are in effect screwed.

@emailcharlie

"he friggin wrote his own text book and design his own thing (which doesnt in itself mean its the **** but goes to show his 20+ years of teaching and his masters degree in education..."

I've seen the textbook and I sneer.

Point is - they've done a runner, presumably with the coin. Their names will rattle around the Internet for 100 years.

The more online controversy, with names - the worse it gets for absconding Kaien management. I can only imagine what is happening on Chinese BBS.

Another textbook on fleecing China and getting away with it - perhaps ?

"Guide to f*vi%g China and getting rich for Dummies". A nice read.