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how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

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how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby Doroto » Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:18 pm

I was approached recently by a California-based realtor asking for legal advice on Chinese people making investment in USA property market.

So far as I know the subprime crisis really hurt the property market in USA, leading sharp fall in property prices throughout the country (probably with high-end property remaining firm), this is seen by many Chinese investors as golden opportunities to invest in USA property market since the prices are now low and attractive.

News had it that a lot of Chinese people esp those from Wenzhou, Zhejiang had flooded into USA searching for best buy there. I did not know whether that had gave rise to deals in the USA. I talked to a friend here who knew many Wenzhou people investing in Shanghai property market, and was advised that those Wenzhou people did not really close any deals at all because they believed that USA property market may not be rewarding as it appeared due to heavey taxes and slow appreciation.

Considering an array of issues such as heavey taxes, low expectation of US economy recovery, maintenance and management of property after buying, the forex control at home and etc., Chinese people could really feel frustrated when buying property in USA unless it was really a golden opportunity.

What do you think? I would like to hear comments from expats here who know both USA and Chinese property markets.
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby brokenfishing » Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:01 pm

Chinese buyers flooded not only USA, but (at least as i know) : Japan, Singapore, UK..

Can you imagine if they also have another purpose...like find safer place for own rich arses ? :roll:

Imho.
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby phiota » Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:08 pm

I think it is more attractive on a rental income basis and safer on a basis of average household income vs value of property. The main negative is the bearish view of the US economy in a flat/global world...but with Shanghai/China property values going up already so much all of this risk is IMO already priced in.

I'm heading back next month and will be looking to invest in maybe a inexpensive property in Vegas for more rental income.
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby maximus1 » Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:13 am

houses in the desert. rich dad, poor dad - he teaches such good lessons!
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby CoffeeHawk_0 » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:54 am

better to buy a property when the market is down 25% to 50% (USA) than when the market is ridiculously inflated by 1000% and about to pop (Shanghai). Duh.
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby phiota » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:08 am

maximus1 wrote:houses in the desert. rich dad, poor dad - he teaches such good lessons!


When Vegas single family houses go for sale between 50-100k you buy in Vegas. These houses still rent out for around $800 a month. Of course more unstable but that's when the potential bargains are to be picked up.
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby ayall » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:19 am

maximus1 wrote:houses in the desert. rich dad, poor dad - he teaches such good lessons!


i've read Robert Kiyosaki books, and the dude is a fraud/fooney - did you know the reason he wrote those books is because he was so far in debt he need some "positive cash flow" to cover all his awful real-estate investments?!?!

when it comes to investing in real estate, it's a tricky business.
I wrote about it in another topic, and don't want to regurgitate - so look it up and you can read up on it.

in summary, when you invest in a property you don't tend to live on, you're putting yourself in a situation which can get ugly fast. if you play the game of "property manager," you need to be well versed and full dedicated because one wrong slip and your investment goes down the toilet.

the up&down of real-estate values is no different the currency or stock market, but when you hold onto something as tangible as real-estate, you've got to keep a very close eye because it can get damaged along the way.
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby Doroto » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:22 am

brokenfishing wrote:Chinese buyers flooded not only USA, but (at least as i know) : Japan, Singapore, UK..

Can you imagine if they also have another purpose...like find safer place for own rich arses ? :roll:

Imho.


I agree. However, my client wants to target a broad pool of Chinese buyers.
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby Doroto » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:32 am

phiota wrote:I think it is more attractive on a rental income basis and safer on a basis of average household income vs value of property. The main negative is the bearish view of the US economy in a flat/global world...but with Shanghai/China property values going up already so much all of this risk is IMO already priced in.

I'm heading back next month and will be looking to invest in maybe a inexpensive property in Vegas for more rental income.


Could you please go further to let me know whether the rental income is sufficient enough to pay up taxes in the same year? i guess rental income needs to be taxed also. what is the tax rate?

Though a lot of people would think the Shanghai property market is on the brink of collapse, recently it seemed property market here is regaining its fever, seeing new houses being sold quickly. Equally a lot of people are in the market.
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby Doroto » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:53 am

ayall wrote:
maximus1 wrote:houses in the desert. rich dad, poor dad - he teaches such good lessons!




"I wrote about it in another topic".

I have gone quickly through all your posts and did not find any one that is informative on this subject matter. Did i miss it?
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby brokenfishing » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:57 am

Doroto wrote:I agree. However, my client wants to target a broad pool of Chinese buyers.


In same case your client should have agency in USA, in place that is targeted by Chinese buyers ... something like San Fransisco or so.. Or how he/she planning to take the service fees ? :lol:

Another question is: owning property in USA is not mean giving citizenship, right ? Of course i heard about new regulation about holding $500k for 5(?) years for automatically getting citizenship, but in same case the buyer should have another $500k for life/business/integration, so total ~ $1mln. Let me guess .. people who made $1mln or more IN CHINA :roll: - definitely have a balls for take a trip to USA and gets what they want by self. :wink:

PS: probably you can try to be an commercial representative of USA universities and gets discount ?

IMHO.
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby ayall » Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:42 pm

doro -

here is the thread;
post1373378.html#p1373378

different topic matter, but i wrote;

"As a home owner, that's what it's about... you can't see a house as an investment cause you're paying (especially in the USA) a lot of money to the bank (for mortgage) and even more money to the govt. for property taxes... your home price will never grow fast enough for you to claim profit.

As a property owner, its a little different... your renters typically pay the mortgage and sales tax in the rent, and if you're really lucky you might also pull in a little income. with that being said, you hope to buy low and sell high, with minimal investment in the duration.

a lot of people will bark houses "appreciate" as opposed to other things that "depreciation," but i completely disagree. the land the house sits on appreciates - while the house, like any asset, depreciates... you have to invest tons of money in upkeep from appliances which will run you a few grand, a roof which will cost you many grand and any other additional investing to keep the property at above value (of what you purchased it).

unless you get lucky in a bubble (like many in the USA did prior to the pop), home ownership is nothing more then throwing good money at bad money."


property management is very difficult and even very risky - on-top of the expected repairs i mentioned in my above statement, think of some of the likely, though unexpected, risks;
1) no renter - not only are you not earning income, but you're paying a large amount to cover mortgage/taxes... if you don't have a renter for a few months, it'll likely take years for you to just "break even" on the amount spent to cover those few months.
2) renter damages something or doesn't pay rent - now you're going to be throwing a lot of money at legal fees to sue, and if you win, you won't get any of your lawyer/court costs paid back - it's typically a lost, yet sometimes necessary, cause


don't get me wrong - property management is a very lucrative business (if done properly), but it's not as easy as Richard makes it out to be in his books - you've got to be full committed and devote ALOT of time to it.
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby Doroto » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:05 pm

To Ayall:

Thanks.

Let us say, the USA economy is going to pull itself out of mess soon and property value may return to its pre-crisis level, how fast can such return be?

I read a report that from 1994 to 2000, USA property market saw only an average annual increase of 2.3% in the prices, which in contrast of China property market, is very humble to Chinese investors who have be accustomed to Chinese glaring price jump year on year.

I personally think if people's expectation for USA's economic recovery is passive, the US property market will not be a good chance for investment for Chinese people.
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby ayall » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:21 pm

yep, i agree doroto - i think china or india or some place booming up is a better investment - not the usa which is, sadly, deflating.

i like that 2.3% fact, and it goes to show that large money is only made in huge short-term swings (like recent history has shown us). As i stated earlier, it's the same in the stock market.

I also think saying "USA economy is going to pull itself out of mess soon" is a BIG stretch... unemployment is still over 10% (and that's only the ppl claiming!! - some people who have been on it can't claim anymore and aren't rolled up in the official stats!) and it was only artificial reasons like the bail outs and other government "panic" programs like Cash-4-Clunkers and First-time-home-buyer that the USA didn't hit rock bottom... now that they're taking some of these away, i think we'll see another dip.
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby phiota » Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:23 pm

Saw on another forum:

"This is an abstract from Andy Xie's most recent artcile,it can show you why china real estate is degenerating into a tool to steal state fund from state bank :
The inflation has so far occurred mostly in land and commodities. The land price has increased by over ten times since 2002, thirty times in some hot coastal cities, and over one hundred times in the most speculative areas. For example, in many villages in Zhejiang Province, the land price has risen above 10 yuan per million mu to 100 times the price a decade ago. Even though the land is rezoned for urban use, the price can't be justified under any circumstance. It is nearly ten times the average land price in Britain for urban use. Britain's urban land prices are the highest among all major developed economies. It is reasonable to believe that China's land price is the highest among than all the major economies today, even though China's average wage is one tenth of the developed countries'.
The increasingly inflated land prices have shown up in the nominal GDP through rising property sales to over 14 percent of GDP last year. Moreover, so much investment has occurred due to the collateral value of land. Local governments have borrowed enormous amount of money (probably around 17 percent of total bank lending) to fund or subsidize investment for creating GDP. The loans are secured with land. Without the high land price it is impossible for this source of financing to be possible. As fixed investment is close to half of GDP and driven by government, it is easy to understand how the land bubble has accounted for a big part of the growth in this cycle.
Recent manufacturing investment, for example, is partly due to high land price. Local governments have been competing fiercely for manufacturing investment. Many companies have learnt to exact so much benefit from local governments that they put down no equity capital for investment. They often ask for free land and use the land as collateral for a bank loan. They then lease equipment from the manufacturers that obtain bank loans for the leases. Essentially, the equity capital is from the land donated by the government. This explains why so many companies have always had negative net cash flow but keep expanding. Indeed, expansion is critical to their survival, as they need new investment to bring in cash to sustain themselves.
Profit drives investment that in turn powers employment that then grows consumption. When profit is due to asset appreciation and not sustainable, it can lead to crisis. Large bubbles often occur during prolonged prosperity. People stop paying attention to risk and have excessive demand risk assets. It leads to an asset bubble that prolongs prosperity beyond the normal cycle time length. The more overextended the cycle, the more pain in adjustment after the bubble bursts.
Possibly half of China's bank lending is to the property related businesses or local governments that pledge land as collateral. While the current boom has catapulted China ahead of Japan as the world's second-largest economy, we must remember the excesses in this cycle and the need for an adjustment as soon as possible. Nothing reveals the vulnerabilities more than the banking system's exposure to unsustainable economic activities that depend on land appreciation. China should proactively bring about the needed economic adjustment.

according to my own research and analysis of china A share listed companies and domestic SME, majority of firms are working with local government to get free land under the name of setting up factory, build" manufacting ,trade zone" " culture, tourist site" ,set "green technology"and high technology zone, then pledged this often low price land to the bank to obtain the massive amount of loan.
of course, most of these development site can not generate enough cash flow at all to pay back the loan, as a result, most of the site are abondoned and left to rusty. they are just trying everything to delay the inevitable collapse. it is also the reason why many insiders said that the china banking system have already bankrupted many times over and now it can not afford to stop to lend , or even recall the old loan, if they recall the old loan, those domestic firms can not pay at all. then whole system will collapse, that is truth of china banking system. "
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby Doroto » Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:15 pm

Andy Xie has been warning the property market for a number of years. No one knows whether the year of 2012 will see what he is predicting.

My feeling is that there are still strong demand for commercial properties. I have been inquired quite a few times recently by companies that are going to buy office rooms or buildings in Shanghai.

Institutional investors like Blackstone are still pouring money into the property market to buy property and renovate, upgrade and then rent them out.

No one knows what will happen esp in the context of China market.
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby rickettyrabbit » Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:45 pm

Doroto wrote:No one knows what will happen esp in the context of China market.


Right. A few months ago, locals were sitting on the sidelines, waiting for the long-promised "tax" to be revealed. Now, they seem to think it will never come, and are slowly creeping back into the market. They undoubtedly know more about Chinese property than I do, but OMFG, do they really think the government will back off now?
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby bleepingbleeper » Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:12 pm

great. all the US needs now is another RE bubble, this time propped up by the rich chinese.
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby Doroto » Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:31 pm

bleepingbleeper wrote:great. all the US needs now is another RE bubble, this time propped up by the rich chinese.


You know better than I do that US subprime crisis is due to US people's overconsumption, high levarage, and low-saving. That is not the style of Chinese people. That is probably the reason the Chinese property market has been kept on track for so many crazy years.

I guess the Chinese money can be beneficial to US sluggish economy in a short run.
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby drunk » Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:29 pm

Doroto wrote:US subprime crisis is due to US people's overconsumption, high levarage, and low-saving.


Or because: banks gave loans with zero down payments / to people who has not stable work or credit rating / and all expectation for the future was too bright / american property market has not big brother who continuously increase land prices.
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby bleepingbleeper » Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:32 pm

Doroto wrote:
bleepingbleeper wrote:great. all the US needs now is another RE bubble, this time propped up by the rich chinese.


You know better than I do that US subprime crisis is due to US people's overconsumption, high levarage, and low-saving. That is not the style of Chinese people. That is probably the reason the Chinese property market has been kept on track for so many crazy years.

I guess the Chinese money can be beneficial to US sluggish economy in a short run.

you still get the same artificial jump in housing demand and price inflation in both cases. just that the banks don't collapse in the latter case because properties will be bought with cash. but still, do you want to pay inflated prices for your house like the urban chinese? inflated prices will also mean higher property tax payment. so all home-owners will suffer.
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby phiota » Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:41 pm

drunk wrote:
Doroto wrote:US subprime crisis is due to US people's overconsumption, high levarage, and low-saving.


Or because: banks gave loans with zero down payments / to people who has not stable work or credit rating / and all expectation for the future was too bright / american property market has not big brother who continuously increase land prices.


It was also caused because of the low interest rate the bank was (and still is...though much harder to qualify) lending out money at which is tied to the interest rate that Freddie mac (which now I think buys 90% of mortgages from banks) which is controlled by Federal government which can borrow money by means of the treasury auctions which China/Middle East/Japan...keeps purchasing @ very low rates in order to keep the US consumers spending on their countries products.....all a big interconnected circle which everyone is afraid of falling apart.
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby rickettyrabbit » Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:18 pm

Doroto wrote:You know better than I do that US subprime crisis is due to US people's overconsumption, high levarage, and low-saving. That is not the style of Chinese people. That is probably the reason the Chinese property market has been kept on track for so many crazy years.


The Chinese property market "kept on track"? That's the funniest thing I've read here in ages. Apartments selling for more than 30 years average gross salary in Shanghai, similar in other major cities, and an estimate of 64 million empty flats in China is "on track" for a major and very disruptive correction. It's a very rare beast - a "double bubble" - price bubble plus supply bubble. I just hope they don't burst rapdily, because I think it would hurt a lot of people everywhere.
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby Doroto » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:17 am

rickettyrabbit wrote:The Chinese property market "kept on track"? That's the funniest thing I've read here in ages. Apartments selling for more than 30 years average gross salary in Shanghai, similar in other major cities, and an estimate of 64 million empty flats in China is "on track" for a major and very disruptive correction. It's a very rare beast - a "double bubble" - price bubble plus supply bubble. I just hope they don't burst rapdily, because I think it would hurt a lot of people everywhere.


Ok. i should hve said that the property market was kept from collapsing. This is what I mean by "kept on track", meaning not collapsing yet.

On the other hand, people talk about bubble, but seldom do they define what bubble is and what standards are used for measuring the bubble.

Now this was off the original topic of this thread to pursue that question.
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby p1atl10 » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:48 am

Doroto,
- Is it a good time to invest in real estate in the US.
Home prices are down by 20% to 50%.
So on the face of it.....yes.

- Will the market come back quickly?
No.
So if your aim is a quick buck on a 5 year investment. Bad idea.
Aside from some bubble areas like Las Vegas, LA, New York City, San Francisco the average home appreciation historically runs around 7%.

I know a few folks that have made good money over the years, and even recently, by buying up rental properties and then managing them.

But they manage them themselves.
Management fees for a reputable company to do it for you usually run 30-40% of the rent.

It is a great time to buy if you are looking for a primary residence for yourself you plan to live in for 10-15 years.

Making a single home rental property work as an absentee is always a difficult deal....
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby Adrienne » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:59 am

Totally off topic here but nonetheless just as important as the US Property market..............

.......how's the golf going platty dear??

And even more important do you have enough blondes there to keep you happy?? I mean the liquid amber kind of course. :wink2::

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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby Doroto » Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:40 pm

p1atl10 wrote:Doroto,
- Is it a good time to invest in real estate in the US.
Home prices are down by 20% to 50%.
So on the face of it.....yes.

- Will the market come back quickly?
No.
So if your aim is a quick buck on a 5 year investment. Bad idea.
Aside from some bubble areas like Las Vegas, LA, New York City, San Francisco the average home appreciation historically runs around 7%.

I know a few folks that have made good money over the years, and even recently, by buying up rental properties and then managing them.

But they manage them themselves.
Management fees for a reputable company to do it for you usually run 30-40% of the rent.

It is a great time to buy if you are looking for a primary residence for yourself you plan to live in for 10-15 years.

Making a single home rental property work as an absentee is always a difficult deal....


I think you say the very true thing. Chinese real estate flippers have been accustomed to quick and high ROI for their property investment. However, US market simply does not allow that at all.

It is apparently a bad idea to buy property for a short term. No one knows when the US property market could see a turnaround. For people who want to transfer their fourtune out of China for sake of insecurity here, probably it is time for them to snap up.
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby leshkos » Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:03 pm

Doroto wrote:On the other hand, people talk about bubble, but seldom do they define what bubble is and what standards are used for measuring the bubble.


That's easy. Doroto, when rent CAN'T cover loan payments - it's mean bubble, because COMMON SENSE is LOST in that case.
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby maximus1 » Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:44 pm

p1atl10 wrote:Doroto,
- Is it a good time to invest in real estate in the US.
Home prices are down by 20% to 50%.
So on the face of it.....yes.

- Will the market come back quickly?
No.
So if your aim is a quick buck on a 5 year investment. Bad idea.
Aside from some bubble areas like Las Vegas, LA, New York City, San Francisco the average home appreciation historically runs around 7%.

I know a few folks that have made good money over the years, and even recently, by buying up rental properties and then managing them.

But they manage them themselves.
Management fees for a reputable company to do it for you usually run 30-40% of the rent.

It is a great time to buy if you are looking for a primary residence for yourself you plan to live in for 10-15 years.

Making a single home rental property work as an absentee is always a difficult deal....


Overall, I'd say you're spot on regarding almost everything you mention... except average home appreciation. Long term return of property is actually about 1% greater than the inflation rate - and after the massive run-up like we saw in some places over the past 20 years, people shouldn't expect anything to play out like clockwork anytime soon.

As for foreigners getting involved in a game like this - make sure you understand the US tax tentacles attached to those properties... especially in lovely locations like sunny California!
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Re: how do you think of investing in real estate in USA?

Postby johnpeter123 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:12 pm

When you invest in a property, do not tend to live, you put yourself in a situation that can become very ugly fast.Though people think that the housing market in Shanghai is on the verge of collapse, more recently, market Real estate seemed to regain his fever here, because the new houses sold quickly. As many people are in the market.
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