I'm at the crossroads, and I hope to get some advice here on whether to move to Shanghai.

Some background: I'm in my early 30's and lived in China about a decade ago. I still speak passable Chinese and at one point I could even write characters but that is long gone now.

The things that are attracting me to Shanghai is its bizarre mixture of an unbridled spirit, raw form of capitalism, and overtly oppressive yet pragmatic government.... i.e., the antithesis of the country I come from, Meiguo. At the same time, I am concerned that I will get bored/frustrated with the culture, especially since I will be making an open-ended commitment of at least 5 years. In my ideal world, this place would be overflowing with abstract discussion about politics, philosophy, science, and economics, something which the US used to excel in before the days of the Patriot act. Nowadays everyone is so reticent to talk about controversial topics, which unfortunately are the most lively things to talk about.

What are this forum's opinions of the intellectual atmosphere of Shanghai?

Do the expats like to get together to shoot the **** ala Junto Club or is it all clubbing and tail chasing? I have high hopes because the laowais that move to China are usually a bizarre lot. Don't get me wrong, I like to chase tail too, but in the long run enjoying friends and good company is the most important thing.

Please tell me your experiences (good or bad) about intellectual frustration in Shanghai!

As dynamic as Shanghai is sometimes, intellectually this place is a desert. One of the things that I miss here is some intellectual challenge. The lack thereof makes a lot of people lose their edge here pretty soon.

Luckily I have made some good friends over time here, and I like to escape the city in the weekends to enjoy my sailing hobby at Dianshan lake. Nice bunch of people there, from all walks of life and backgrounds

Your intellectual atmosphere will be decided by who you hang with in your network of people you know. Not everyone goes out drinking every night. Laowai's here may be a bizarre lot, but taken as a whole, there is a tremendous range of diversity. Probably with a little effort and a willingness to go through an occasional disappointment, you will be able to find the kind of people that will add something to this facet of your life.

Limited compared with say London. On a par with HK. There are alternative expat scenes to clubbing. Artsy and spiritual scenes are beginning to emerge. Lots of interesting people from different backgrounds, ex-hippes, self-made entrepreneurs, B-list film actors. But not really much intellectual life, in my experience. BJ is probably a better bet in this regard.

It's difficult to discuss many things in Shanghai because you don't want to be a 'downer.' The SNL character Debbie Downer springs to mind, ha.

You might try joining a volunteer group, such as BEAN, if you want to meet people who perhaps majored in things such as politics or sociology. Every event I've been to has been about 99% women, ha. I did a socio-legal internship through ECNU and that was really helpful. I've found that my local friends (met through work, not a club) love to discuss politics and how people view China, how China views itself, and so on.

To be honest, and I'm not trying to be all judgey here, but I think the vast majority of people in Shanghai (men and women), like their life of cheap massages, hookers, manicures, clubbing and sight-seeing. They don't want to think about what life is like for the people who provide these services. I don't know many expats who have many close Chinese friends. Some of my friends don't have any. The one Chinese friend they do have is typically a really hot Shanghainese girl who lived abroad for some years. I don't know any western guys who have close, local male friends. I know there must be some, but I always found this to be a bit bizarre. I doubt many of my Western friends have even been inside a local friend's apartment. It can be quite a sobering experience to hear about their life.

I've made it a goal to always have one or two books around and to load podcasts on to my ipod instead of just listening to music on the way to work. That combined with studying language should keep my brain from getting fuzzy. Also, like somebody said above, Shanghai's art scene does seem to be growing and some of the exhibitions definitely make a political statement.

Agree with andreas, vesper and duncw -- seems dull -- once in a while, we have good discussions at the weekend coffee meets, but many times, no.

Starting a new group which meets say twice a month, will be a good idea -- may be discuss a good book or something like that.

Thanks for all your replies. They are painting a picture that if you want intellectual stimulation you have to search for it, but it's there.

Holding a Junto Club in a private home may work, provided there is space for 15 or so people. Doing it at a Starbucks or other open format may be inviting unwanted attention.

Is the lack of intellectual atmosphere in Shanghai due to fear of big brother, just cultural laziness, or both (or d) none of the above)?

grabblegrobble wrote:Is the lack of intellectual atmosphere in Shanghai due to fear of big brother, just cultural laziness, or both (or d) none of the above)?

It's more likely (b) than (a).

At least we could discuss the latest Paul Krugman or Tom Friedman article on NYT -- not Maureen Dowd

I would say that some ideas or memberships might be helpful in terms of advancing a career, while visiting the hospital or retiring, so people are less likely to want to screw that up by giving their honest opinion about something.

I just had an hour long chat with a guy in my office who was asking about censorship, relationships with Taiwan, China in Africa and stuff, but I doubt he would have the same conversation with any of the Chinese staff members. I don't think it's a fear of 'big brother' himself, but rather a fear of having a different opinion than say, their boss or other important people who they may need to depend on later.

However, that's for the Chinese. As for expats, I think loads of people think they are going to come here and 'experience China' and 'make a difference' (yes, direct quotes) and then pretty soon they're sitting at home with their Chinese girlfriend and X-box, wondering if they can get a management position at their English school.

What can you talk about in Shanghai?

Talk about Mao? People will think you are insulting an icon.
Talk about the government issues? People will think you are anti-CCP and want you to leave the country.
Talk about Chinese culture or history? People don't seem to have the patience to explain and just tell you that you just won't understand Chinese culture or history.
Talk about t¡bet? Actually I really want to know what's happening over there. But any talk about it people think you are one of these 'set t¡bet free' people.
Talk about China's great firewall that blocks very useful sites like wiki and facebook from time to time? Most have no idea because China has their own versions.
Talk about economics? They will say how China is the best and how they are immune to the global financial crisis nuff said, West sucks, the end.

Basically anything intelligent sorts of offends people here. And openly discussing this in public can offendsome people, especially locals or foreigners that fell in love with China and hates the West. I can however have an intelligent discussion about World of Warcraft. And alot of them are not too fond of the government stopping its expansions or censorships, but will never openly prοtest. You can check Chinese forums and there are really no debates, but just showoffs or 'yo check it out' threads. Just a forum that if you disargee just call the opponent a retard jackass. Chinasmack.com will give you an overall view about it.

And living in Shanghai I feel my IQ dropped from 145 to 95. I dunno what happened. But I feel dumb. Maybe no mental exercise and just how vesper puts it enjoying "life of cheap massages, hookers, manicures, clubbing and sight-seeing."

hang out with french! they love to debate on politics. even with totally strangers!

The people I come across in Shanghai are quite smart but they have very busy lives and in their time off they like to do relaxing things. Talking about deep subjects is not what people tend to want to do in the time they have off. On the whole I find expats friendly here and quite open and smarter than expats in other countries I have lived. Of course there is a wide variety of people here. Drinking a lot would be a common trait amongst many expats here. Also the intelect is not a very advanced level for humanity there is much more advanced parts of the brain to learn about so maybe you might want to read some books like the power of now and get past the worship of the intelect.

The expat community is very diverse.. student interns to CEO's and all levels in between. I don't think it a problem of fearing Big Brother, until you are standing on the street corner with a bullhorn spouting something they would take offense to. I don't don't think the norm is the party drink-til-you-drop expat. I do think that most of the business expats here come here to work and many times that work just takes an inordinate amount of time on their time and intellectual resources. So yes, you have to do some work to put together something engaging for a group of like minded people who could become your friends. Shanghai is the kind of place that if you don't have goal and organize your life to move forward with, it will give many diversions, opportunities, blind alleys, eye-candy entertainments, to spin your wheels on and kill a few brain cells in the process.

Moroes wrote:And living in Shanghai I feel my IQ dropped from 145 to 95. I dunno what happened. But I feel dumb. Maybe no mental exercise and just how vesper puts it enjoying "life of cheap massages, hookers, manicures, clubbing and sight-seeing."

Interesting you mention this. I feel something similar, not specifically IQ related, but more like an erosion of my entire skill set. I feel like I am losing my sharpness, the edge I used to have. To do an excellent job here, I only need to use a small fraction of my capacity, and this lack of challenge is not good for morale. Being the only non-Chinese person in the management of my company does of course also not really help.
It's like being driven towards mediocrity.

I find myself reading a lot more here, and enjoying and appreciating more those people who you can actually have a decent conversation with.

Moroes wrote:And living in Shanghai I feel my IQ dropped from 145 to 95. I dunno what happened. But I feel dumb. Maybe no mental exercise and just how vesper puts it enjoying "life of cheap massages, hookers, manicures, clubbing and sight-seeing."

With so many retarded locals and so many expats becoming retarded (Xbox and hot chinese gf), what intellectual company can you expect?

Find some Russians and talk with them.

I have met 17 year old Russian High School students who have self-taught themselves 2 or 3 languages and have the intellectual basis of your median Western Masters graduate.

grabblegrobble wrote:Is the lack of intellectual atmosphere in Shanghai due to fear of big brother, just cultural laziness, or both (or d) none of the above)?

I can't speak for everyone, but from what I see in my circles, people work really hard and really long hours. My husband is putting in 12 hour days 6 days a week. I think if anyone suggested to him that he was failing to contribute to an intellectual atmosphere out of fear or laziness, he'd probably have to work additionally hard at not pulling their windpipe out through their nostrils. For me, I don't consider anyone responsible for stimulating my mind other than myself. You get out of this city what you put into it. (Like pretty much anywhere else in the world.) There are tremendous opportunities here and an amazing group of people. If anyone is siting around moaning 'oh, there is nothing for my intellectual development here', I would say that is probably because their head is inserted so far up their own backside, they can't see what's right in front of them.

Klick wrote:You get out of this city what you put into it. (Like pretty much anywhere else in the world.) There are tremendous opportunities here and an amazing group of people. If anyone is sitting around moaning 'oh, there is nothing for my intellectual development here', I would say that is probably because their head is inserted so far up their own backside, they can't see what's right in front of them.

Amen to that.

The locals still get together every weekend in People's Square Park, Nanjing Xi Lu entrance, line 2 exit, and have massive debate sessions. Maybe you know, people put up cards with the topics they want to discuss. 2 weeks ago there was easily 40 groups with over 300 people. But, 19 out of 20 groups are Mandarin only.

The closest English version of this is two 28 year old exSilicon Valley 'managers' sitting on the patio at Element Fresh reciting lines from an MBA brochure they once read. Oh, and they'll have small beards too which makes the conversation much more interesting.

The locals still get together every weekend in People's Square Park, Nanjing Xi Lu entrance, line 2 exit, and have massive debate sessions. Maybe you know, people put up cards with the topics they want to discuss. 2 weeks ago there was easily 40 groups with over 300 people. But, 19 out of 20 groups are Mandarin only.

The closest English version of this is two 28 year old exSilicon Valley 'managers' sitting on the patio at Element Fresh reciting lines from an MBA brochure they once read. Oh, and they'll have small beards too which makes the conversation much more interesting.

That is really cool. Thanks for the tip. I'll have to check that out.

Seriously, we ought to start our own group.

May be discuss this (abt a new group) at the next weekend coffee meet?

'

The level of intellect among expats can be judged by the fact that the usual posters have deserted this thread Talk about hot girls and cheap DVDs, we would have had 100s of posts here by now!

living cost too high

Well I'm having more of an ethical frustration than intellectual.

I find it hard to talk to Chinese about anything besides, games, movies, shopping, or work. i think the Chinese think that talking about issues they cannot affect is pointless, and a lot of them don't know of any issues

I don't know about the rest of you on here, but I've gotten a few PMs in the past year from Chinese posters asking me why I don't like China! in fact, 99% of the time, I do like China, but if I post on a subject like Chinese talking to damn loud or buildings falling over in MinHang, I get, "Why don't you like China?" messages . Maybe Chinese talk about these things or topics of a more intellectual nature, but I don't think they like talking about them with foreigners because they feel a loss of face anytime their country, society, or government is criticized.

As for foreigners, in my area I know absolutely 0 foreigners and I never try to meet the ones I do see here. Most of the foreigners I've met through work spend all their time drinking and partying. In the past year I've gone out with them once. I guess I've become slightly antisocial.... but ShExpat is a good place to have intellectual discussions, although some on here prefer mobbing to debate!

My Chinese friends are adults - generally over 40, worldly, well-read, and sophisticated. Bimbos, bar-flys, gamers and fashionistas are not part of my circle. My foreign friends are artists and always have something interesting to say. As far as I'm concerned, most everyone else is "a loyal plastic robot for a world that doesn't care," as Frank Zappa sez.

Hi dear foreign expats in Shanghai,
I'm male Chinese and can't help to register , reply this post and participate your discussion on the intellectual topic.

Had carefully read each reply on above. I understand all the puzzles you've had while getting along with your Chinese friends.

There are some quite special characteristics on this moment Chinese common people, please be noted:
1-Most of chinese people can not tell the difference from the government and the CCP. About 95% people are taught that CCP is the "mother of country or government".
So when they receive criticise and becomes upset mainly is of this reason, some are of the face problem.

2-All medias are under strict control and being heavily censored. Newspaper, TVs and the internet. Youtube, facebook, wiki ect.is blocked by the great fire wall(GFW, technically suported by CISCO). And that's why google withdrew from mainland to HK.

3-You can not expect those people who had receving false information to make correct and independent judgement. That's the key point.

4-Foolish people is easy to manage" That is what had happened on this land through the past 60 yrs.

With this background understanding, easy to explain some puzzles to your experiences here.

some guys say became dumb mentally, it is the large power from "big brother" that is working well.

The last and important point: my chinese people actually is smart enough- paper, fireworks,printing and compass was invented by chinese people.
The situation will be changed anyway, let's wait and see.

xshark wrote:The last and important point: my chinese people actually is smart enough- paper, fireworks,printing and compass was invented by chinese people.
The situation will be changed anyway, let's wait and see.

Paper, paper, paper, paper, paper, paper - "chinese people are smart bcos they invented paper" How many times have we heard this, since we arrived in China? We hear this many times EVERY DAY!

To xshark:
Every country invents something, and your country invented paper - Get it? For your information, other countries have invented billions of other things - and China has invented VERY FEW things.

Do you understand? Good. Class over, go home.

xshark, I liked your post and I am always interested to hear the opinion of local people on such subjects.

However, you blew it with your last paragraph. It's generally accepted in the West that five inventions (you forgot ice cream) over 3000 years is not a particularly impressive hit rate.

Nevertheless you have a point. The lack of a healthy intellectual tradition in mainland China can be considered a purely cultural phenomenon. I think that Confucianism and the current regime's policy of heavy censorship are equally to blame. It's certainly not in Chinese people's genes - they tend to hit above their weight when born and raised overseas.