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Lost decade - US economy

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Lost decade - US economy

Postby btb » Sun Jan 03, 2010 12:49 am


Aughts were a lost decade for U.S. economy, workers
By Neil Irwin
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, January 2, 2010; A01

For most of the past 70 years, the U.S. economy has grown at a steady clip, generating perpetually higher incomes and wealth for American households. But since 2000, the story is starkly different.

The past decade was the worst for the U.S. economy in modern times, a sharp reversal from a long period of prosperity that is leading economists and policymakers to fundamentally rethink the underpinnings of the nation's growth.

It was, according to a wide range of data, a lost decade for American workers. The decade began in a moment of triumphalism -- there was a current of thought among economists in 1999 that recessions were a thing of the past. By the end, there were two, bookends to a debt-driven expansion that was neither robust nor sustainable.

There has been zero net job creation since December 1999. No previous decade going back to the 1940s had job growth of less than 20 percent. Economic output rose at its slowest rate of any decade since the 1930s as well.

Middle-income households made less in 2008, when adjusted for inflation, than they did in 1999 -- and the number is sure to have declined further during a difficult 2009. The Aughts were the first decade of falling median incomes since figures were first compiled in the 1960s.

And the net worth of American households -- the value of their houses, retirement funds and other assets minus debts -- has also declined when adjusted for inflation, compared with sharp gains in every previous decade since data were initially collected in the 1950s.

"This was the first business cycle where a working-age household ended up worse at the end of it than the beginning, and this in spite of substantial growth in productivity, which should have been able to improve everyone's well-being," said Lawrence Mishel, president of the Economic Policy Institute, a liberal think tank.

Question of timing
The miserable economic track record is, in part, a quirk of timing. The 1990s ended near the top of a stock market and investment bubble. Three months after champagne corks popped to celebrate the dawn of the year 2000, the market turned south, a recession soon following. The decade finished near the trough of a severe recession.

But beyond these dramatic ups and downs lies an even more sobering reality: long-term economic stagnation. The trillions of dollars that poured into housing investment and consumer spending in the first part of the decade distorted economic activity.

Capital was funneled to build mini-mansions in Sun Belt suburbs, many of which now sit empty, rather than toward industrial machines or other business investment that might generate economic output and jobs for years to come.

"The problem is that we mismanaged the macroeconomy, and that got us in big trouble," said Nariman Behravesh, chief economist at IHS Global Insight. "The big bad thing that happened was that, in the U.S. and parts of Europe, we let housing bubbles get out of control. That came back to haunt us big-time."

The housing bubble both caused, and was enabled by, a boom in indebtedness. Total household debt rose 117 percent from 1999 to its peak in early 2008, according to Federal Reserve data, as Americans borrowed to buy ever more expensive homes and to support consumption more generally.

Consumers weren't the only ones. The same turn to debt played out in commercial real estate and at financial firms. It resulted in a corporate buyout boom that often produced little of lasting value. It is a truism of finance that for businesses, relying heavily on borrowed money makes the good times better but the bad times far worse. The same thing, as it turns out, could be said of the nation as a whole.

The first decade of the new century was an experiment in what happens when an economy comes to rely heavily on borrowed money.

"A big part of what happened this decade was that people engaged in excessively risky behavior without realizing the risks associated," said Karen Dynan, co-director of economic studies at the Brookings Institution. "It's true not just among consumers but among regulators, financial institutions, lenders, everyone."

The experiment has ended badly. While the stock market bubble that popped in 2000 caused only a mild recession, the housing and credit bubble has had a much greater punch -- driving the unemployment rate to a high, so far, of 10.2 percent, compared with a peak of 6.3 percent following the last such downturn.

The impact of the real estate crash has been broad. Among middle-income families, 69 percent owned a home in 2007, more than four times the proportion owning stocks. And as the housing meltdown cascaded through credit markets, the banking system was buffeted, rocking the whole financial system on which the world's economy rests.

With luck, lessons
Economists and policymakers will be chewing on the lessons of the Aughts for many years to come; the events of the past two years alone are enough to launch a thousand economics dissertations. If past periods of economic trauma are a guide, this research will yield a deeper understanding of how to manage the economy.

The Great Depression of the 1930s led to new insights about the impact a financial collapse can have. The primary lesson -- espoused by Ben S. Bernanke as an academic before acting on it as Fed chairman -- was "Don't let the financial system collapse."

The Great Inflation of the 1970s brought a rethinking of what drives inflation, such that economists now put a premium on maintaining the credibility of central banks and keeping inflation expectations in check.

The lessons of the Bubble Decade are still being formed. At the Federal Reserve, the major lesson that top officials have taken is that bank regulation shouldn't occur in a vacuum; rather than monitor how individual institutions are doing, bank supervisors should try to understand the risks and frailties that the banking system creates for the economy as a whole -- and manage those risks.

Fed leaders have been more skeptical of the idea that they should routinely raise interest rates to try to pop bubbles. "I can't rule out circumstances in which additional monetary policy actions specifically targeted at perceived asset price or credit imbalances and vulnerabilities" would be advisable, Fed Vice Chairman Donald L. Kohn said in a recent speech.

"But given the bluntness of monetary policy as a tool for addressing developments that could lead to financial instability, the side effects of using policy for this purpose, and other difficulties, such circumstances are likely to be very rare."

And the question of how Washington can prevent a recurrence is an overarching theme in the Obama administration's efforts to overhaul the financial system and support growth through investments in clean energy and other areas. "One of our challenges now," President Obama said in November, "is how do we get what I call a post-bubble growth model, one that is sustainable."

The financial crisis is, for all practical purposes, over, and forecasters are now generally expecting the job market to turn around early in 2010 and begin creating jobs. The task ahead for the next generation of economists is to figure out how, in a decade that began with such economic promise, things went so wrong.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... id=topnews

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Postby jeffinflorida » Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:58 am

Faulty story - there was plenty job growth BY the US - it was just in every other **** country in the world.
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Postby btb » Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:56 am

jeffinflorida wrote:Faulty story - there was plenty job growth BY the US - it was just in every other **** country in the world.
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Postby Henry_Chinaski » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:58 am

"Capital was funneled to build mini-mansions in Sun Belt suburbs, many of which now sit empty, rather than toward industrial machines or other business investment that might generate economic output and jobs for years to come. "

Can we sue this guy for ignorance, please?

That's completely, thoroughly stupidly wrong, wrong wrong.

Money creating is being done DIFFERENTLY, hence the measurements used to gauge it need to adapt as well.

What's the investment required to say create Google for example? Peanuts compared to the Rockefeller days, when most of these measurements originated.

Think about two things created in the US this decade alone:

-Google
-Itunes store/apps


If THIS is not machinery, I dont know what it is.

That's a different kind of investment that on a percent basis is much superior to any "machinery investment". It is just not so as visible, and generate jobs in the tertiary sector (services) more than in the secondary (industry), where investment measurements came from.

The US is in position and to a great extent already dominating industries that matter the most in the coming decades. Plus it sucks brains from the rest of the world in an imaginable scale.

About income redistribution: if there's one thing that the new economics favor is concentration of income.
If you are good, you will make A LOT. If you are mediocre, very little protects you from starvation. Solution: pull up your socks. To mix real estate with capital investment is to muddle things up a bit. One thing is only partially related to the other: if credit standards were just a LITTLE bit better the whole mess wouldnt happen and it would appear that, in value, the middle class had more assets than ever before.

It's always easier to say things are shiat and nothing can be done.
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Postby dsugg » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:51 pm

Question of timing
The miserable economic track record is, in part, a quirk of timing. The 1990s ended near the top of a stock market and investment bubble. Three months after champagne corks popped to celebrate the dawn of the year 2000, the market turned south, a recession soon following. The decade finished near the trough of a severe recession.



This paragraph renders the rest of the charts and I assume the theme of the article pointless (I didn't read it after viewing charts). 2001 wasn't even a true recession by the 2 consecutive quarters of negative GDP grow rule so a better comparison would be from the early 1990's recession to the 2009 recession. Both recessions had real estate bubbles bursting and substantial job losses. I think this comparison would show the USA is better off now.

Henry wrote:About income redistribution: if there's one thing that the new economics favor is concentration of income.
If you are good, you will make A LOT. If you are mediocre, very little protects you from starvation. Solution: pull up your socks.



I agree with most of your points but not this. I think it is a huge myth that the super rich are the ones that drive the economy and they need low low tax rates or the jobs will disappear. Most are old farts that put their money in investments and no longer create any value. Yes - invested money does drive the economy, but a strong middle class also invests through pensions and other means. Concentration of money in the hands of a small percentage at the top is not the way to go. Sure - the best and brightest can still become very rich if things work out for them, and that is good, but the system is rigged so that the families that start with money can coast for generations without much effort. I agree that the trailer trash and middle class have been hood winked on this one.

Oh - and all the brains the USA is sucking from the rest of the world - are those the ones flooding in from Mexico?
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Postby Henry_Chinaski » Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:11 pm

"Oh - and all the brains the USA is sucking from the rest of the world - are those the ones flooding in from Mexico?"

I am quite sure there are several quite capable people from Mexico going to the US. However, what I actually meant is people going to study and work there in research for example.

To illustrate this further: the US on average spends from 2 to 3% of GDP in research, as many other countries do (Japan 3%+, Korea 5% ($40+ billion). The US economy is several times larger than most other developed economies, which means that their research budget is HUGE in total figures. This means people seeking to do research will flock there as there is where the money is. Not to mention capital venture and funding, another magnet for talent, very developed in the US.

Meanwhile China is manufacturing flip-flops on the cheap and exporting them as crazy and getting all these flip-flop manufacturing jobs.

Which one of these jobs (a researcher or a flip-flop manufacturer) is best for the US economy in terms of value creation?

Further, a patent filed by the researcher on behalf of his US employer will mean the money stays in the US (a lot of it) even though the invention was made by a foreign brain i.e. the value stays in the US.

Pick the latest inventions of the last decade, pick markets created from zero: chances are they've either been created or funded in the US. Example: Skype. Created by a couple of Danish kids, bought by the US (and now resold apparently?). Google: created by an american kid and a Russian immigrant (Sergei Brin).
Sergei's dad was a researcher in the US, coming from Russia.

Chances that Google would exist if the US never attracted Sergei's father?

The US economy is an unstoppable machine doing very well in all the fronts that matter in the future. Now, granted, it has a huge supposedly stupid middle class (like any middle class) that has not yet made the leap from one industry to another, perhaps never will. Is this bad, or is this unavoidable?

To me its unavoidable: unless you have a very socialistic government, which the US never will, you by definition will end up with periods where the middle class doesnt have the skill set (yet). Problem is: now they are competing with other countries middle classes.
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Postby phiota » Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:40 pm

If the US was the size of say Hong Kong/Singapore/German...it might be able to keep it's current standard of living off of it's innovations but with 300M+ not sure it is possible just like China/India will never be known for high end manufacturing or establish to be a developed country (high avg income) with it's gigantic populations.

As the rest of the developing/emerging world embrace capitalism the edge the US had in attracting the brains is decreasing as well while the uneducated illegal immigration increase with Mexico as Hispanics grow large enough as a voting block. The US should come off it's high moral grounds (can't afford it anymore) and base it's immigration on brains (graduate from top US or world colleges) or invest/pay $XXX,XXX amount and you can get a green card like what Canada/Australia and others are doing.

With the short term thinking (since election every 2-4 years) of deficit spending by government (with China/Japan ready to lend regardless of long term risk) and flat earth/outsourcing phenomenon not sure US or any large developed country (without a lot of natural resources) will keep it's current livings standard over the rest of the developing world.
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Postby awilli8 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:14 pm

base it's immigration on brains (graduate from top US or world colleges) or invest/pay $XXX,XXX amount and you can get a green card like what Canada/Australia and others are doing.



Don't you think this will simply encourage people to short cut or swim/float around the borders to get in? If you think those coyotes don't get paid a dozen family members' annual salary you are kidding yourself.
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Postby phiota » Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:49 pm

Don't you think this will simply encourage people to short cut or swim/float around the borders to get in? If you think those coyotes don't get paid a dozen family members' annual salary you are kidding yourself.


Well Mexicans are already doing this. I do not blame them at all since it is in their own personal self interest who should be blamed is the government for allowing this to happen decade after decade. What I am talking about is the legal immigration policy not the illegal one (this one is simple build a tall wall/fence/...).
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Postby dsugg » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:27 am

phiota wrote:
Don't you think this will simply encourage people to short cut or swim/float around the borders to get in? If you think those coyotes don't get paid a dozen family members' annual salary you are kidding yourself.


Well Mexicans are already doing this. I do not blame them at all since it is in their own personal self interest who should be blamed is the government for allowing this to happen decade after decade. What I am talking about is the legal immigration policy not the illegal one (this one is simple build a tall wall/fence/...).


I agree - any brains the USA attracts are despite the immigration policy, not because of it. Canada has definitely benefited from its policy in terms of talent over the last 30 years. Now the medical schools and universities are full of the Canadian born kids from these well educated immigrants (mostly Chinese and Indian). Meanwhile, the 5th generation white Canadians are busy taking their kids to hockey practices 8 days per week pushing them to become professionals while education takes a back seat. It certainly makes me think that a good immigration policy is necessary for a countries future. You can't leave it in the hands of the 7th generation in-breds.
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Postby p1atl10 » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:28 pm

dsugg wrote:It certainly makes me think that a good immigration policy is necessary for a countries future. You can't leave it in the hands of the 7th generation in-breds.


The good 'ol days in the US.....

http://www.libertystatepark.com/emma.htm

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"


Which is pretty much what built America....

Pity that many of the current "Immigrants" have forgotten their roots...
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Postby btb » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:47 pm

leidelaohu wrote:It was an obvious fraud from the word go and it's been apparent since the assholes behind Ronnie Raygun started the ball rolling. But the thing that is truly amazing to me is that the people who got hurt the worst, the trailer trash and lower middle classes are the biggest idiots, the biggest Rah-Rah Ayn Rand ! fools pushing the entire class warfare scam.

Sad as it is, the country deserves it. The people who caused this mess, the Phil Gramms and Goldman-Sachs bastards, they are all sitting pretty on their ill-got gains and still writing bullcrap articles for the bullcrap press. Where are all the Libertarians and the NRA members who need their weapons to save democracy ? Slit a few hundred throats and we might see some progress.

Nice thing about democracy is that we know who is responsible at the end of the day - the idiot public who cheered for all this **** and made it happen.


Democrats are no better

Both parties are b*tches of big corporations

They just give a perception to the people that there is choice, both don't give a f*ck about people's interest.
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Postby Henry_Chinaski » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:51 pm

Why are "big corporations" necessarily bad?
And is there an alternative to them?

To me: they are not inherently bad, they just incorporate human qualities that are amplified by their size (greed). What makes corporations "bad" is the humans running them. I know a lot of people running small corporations that are some of the biggest turds of humanity i.e. the size of the corporation makes no difference, just the scale of its impact which leads to "bitches of big corporations" is misplaced energy.
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Postby btb » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:57 pm

Henry_Chinaski wrote:Why are "big corporations" necessarily bad?
And is there an alternative to them?

To me: they are not inherently bad, they just incorporate human qualities that are amplified by their size (greed). What makes corporations "bad" is the humans running them. I know a lot of people running small corporations that are some of the biggest turds of humanity i.e. the size of the corporation makes no difference, just the scale of its impact which leads to "bitches of big corporations" is misplaced energy.


If politicians look for interest of big corporations instead of interest of people "in a democracy" then the politicians are b*tches of big corporations.

:idea: :idea: :idea:
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Postby Henry_Chinaski » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:29 pm

How is the interest of big corporations different from "the people"?
A big corporation is also part of "the people" ins't it so?

It just happens that politicians, like ANY LIVING ORGANISM, try to perpetuate themselves. Their biggest chances of doing so is to stick to those who increase their chances of survival. If this happens to be a corporation, that's what they'll do.

Further, the same "people" you talk about barely show up for elections that determine their own destiny, thus they deserve every millimeter of tube steak they get up their anuses.

I think the whole "corporations are bad" hysteria is an enormous load of crap. They are as good or as bad as anything else, except that since they are in general better off than "people", they are an easy target for the masses who normally couldn't figure out a way out of a wet paper bag.
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Postby btb » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:30 pm

Henry_Chinaski wrote:How is the interest of big corporations different from "the people"?
A big corporation is also part of "the people" ins't it so?

It just happens that politicians, like ANY LIVING ORGANISM, try to perpetuate themselves. Their biggest chances of doing so is to stick to those who increase their chances of survival. If this happens to be a corporation, that's what they'll do.

Further, the same "people" you talk about barely show up for elections that determine their own destiny, thus they deserve every millimeter of tube steak they get up their anuses.

I think the whole "corporations are bad" hysteria is an enormous load of crap. They are as good or as bad as anything else, except that since they are in general better off than "people", they are an easy target for the masses who normally couldn't figure out a way out of a wet paper bag.



"Assuming" Free Market is good economic policy

1> Bitches say we want Free market as most the big corporations moved their factory production outside us.
Reason given Good for people as they get cheap good.

2> Bitches say we don't want to import cheap drugs from canada
Is is good for people of big pharama ?
What happened to free market theory

3> Bitches say we want less regulation and let the big banks make profit using over leverage and when things go bad socialize the losses
Is is good for people of big banks

4> Bitches say they want to help people and back stop losses for banks.
so when average joe looses a house and takes a loss , but banks will git back stop from govt.
Is is good for people or big banks

5> Bitches say no more bailout and want financial reform and put a 4T bailout of another crisis arise in future in the reform bill


Democracy was suppose to be by the people for people.
Not for the interest of the corporations and against the interest of the people.


When come to bitches watch what they do, not what they say.




:idea: :idea: :idea:


I think the whole "corporations are bad" hysteria is an enormous load of crap.


Corporations look out for their bottom line nothing is right or wrong.
When they dictate the policy it is a disaster in action for a democratic country.
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Postby btb » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:37 pm

Never underestimate human brains creativity to justify anything !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Postby btb » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:54 pm

leidelaohu wrote:
Horny_Chinaski wrote:I think the whole "corporations are bad" hysteria is an enormous load of crap.

Yes and no. The main problem with corporations is that they have all the legal rights of a human being but the people who run them evade all responsibility. The people who run them get free reign. The concept of limited liability is itself a liability.


Its human behavior to take advantage using hook or crook and also avoiding responsibility.

So they are doing what they suppose to do.
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Postby phiota » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:56 pm

As Gordon Grekko said infamously "Greed, for lack of a better word, is good". If your a consumer (even average Joe/Wang...) I think it has never been a better time to purchase goods or services. Even in China the local wet market fruit sellers often can no longer always match/beat the prices (while having worse service/environment) at WalMart & McDonald's prices are low enough that most local people can afford to eat there at least once a week. Consumer goods have also in general (tv's, dvd's, computers....) become cheaper and cheaper.....maybe that's why real estate is going up since that's one of few things that is limited within a desired area.

But as a workers (who are also consumers) especially in the developed world it has gotten harder and harder. Corporations/Companies can in the short term take advantages by being more efficient/cut throat/ruthless but within a short time others will match or beat them.

The key question is what role/policy should the government take (or not take) to protect the worker, boost productivity,....One things I think the US should do is decrease the defense spending (reduce deficit) and force the rest of the so called allies (Japan, Germany, England, France, Korea, Taiwan...) to spend more or else risk losing the military protection the US offers.
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