@ NorthernLights

Actually I've never tried street popcorn...so I couldn't hazard a guess of what magic taste ingredient they use. I generally steered clear from all forms of Chinese street food. Considering the hygiene habits of proper Chinese restaurant staff I'd don't want to even think about what goes on with street level establishments. (shudder)

I've come to expect that when I go out, either with friends or my girlfriend, or a combination of both, replete with Chinese speakers, at least 20% of what we order either won't show up or will be incorrect in some fashion. I've come to accept this and it's just a normal way of life here. For whatever reason, either waiters/waitresses don't listen properly or there is some "failure to communicate" with the kitchen or just general incompetence, things get messed up.

That said, I did have an awful experience from a Western perspective last July or August. The new Glo Bar and Cafe was opening on Dongping road, and I was on my way home and decided to stop into the ground floor cafe to pick up some pastries to have later. Went in and there was a Western woman behind the counter, seemingly training the Chinese staff. She was relaying what she needed in English. I was at the counter and was going to order some things and the trainer stood behind the Chinese staff member as she took my order. The girl, obviously a bit nervous, had to repeat my order to me once or twice, which was fine (despite being only 3 things) and things got moving. I went down to the cash register and paid and they began boxing my stuff. One small box would do and when they began putting the pastries gingerly into a larger box, I just told them to use a smaller one, that it'd be okay. The trainer was a bit full-on, and started grabbing stuff out of the Chinese staff member's hand, and eventually got the things into a small box. Before I left, I thought I'd ask her how it's going. She told me that the Chinese staff were hard to deal with, and stupid. As she said that, one of the male members of staff looked up and over towards her, and then to me and our gazes met. He knew exactly what she had said, and seeing as she was training them in English, quelle surprise! I made a withering look in the direction of the trainer and made my excuses. Never went back there.

Have to say that I was fairly embarrassed to be a Westerner that day, after what this overweight Polish good-for-nothing said in front of the people who were trusting her to point them on the straight and narrow.

Fine, bash Chinese staff all you want, but behind them there is likely an idiot Westerner who doesn't know their arsehole from their elbow.

tihZ_hO wrote: I generally steered clear from all forms of Chinese street food. Considering the hygiene habits of proper Chinese restaurant staff I'd don't want to even think about what goes on with street level establishments. (shudder)

Okay, so this is your opinion and I respect it. But are you really so precious?

I don't know where you're from, but do you really mean to tell me that health standards in food preparation are universal? No, they're not. Just because food is prepared 'a la boulevard' here, doesn't mean it's bad for you. This is the only work these people can get; do you really think they're going to go around poisoning heir customer base? I think not.

More like the Western constitution just isn't ready for the assault, and yes, that includes bacteria. I've been here over a year and a half and got all my dodgy stomachs over and done with in the first six months. Now, no problems, and I love the street food. Baozi, barbecue, chao he fan, whatever, I'm game if I'm hungry. It's an experience I'm proud of. Street food in Korea, more of less, was even better, too.

Brokentime wrote:

tihZ_hO wrote: I generally steered clear from all forms of Chinese street food. Considering the hygiene habits of proper Chinese restaurant staff I'd don't want to even think about what goes on with street level establishments. (shudder)

Okay, so this is your opinion and I respect it. But are you really so precious?

I don't know where you're from, but do you really mean to tell me that health standards in food preparation are universal? No, they're not. Just because food is prepared 'a la boulevard' here, doesn't mean it's bad for you. This is the only work these people can get; do you really think they're going to go around poisoning heir customer base? I think not.

Three words: gutter oil, melamine.

And now for the longer answer.

Of course they're not going to go around poisoning their customer base! Well, OK, some will.

And of course most won't do it deliberately. But how many people die every year from unsanitary food preparation? 76 million cases of food poisoning per year in the USA, with 5,000 deaths.

The Center for Science in the public interest lists these 10 foods as the biggest risks in the USA.

1. Leafy greens (363 outbreaks; 13,568 cases)
2. Eggs (352 outbreaks; 11,164 cases)
3. Tuna (268 outbreaks; 2,341 cases)
4. Oysters: 132 outbreaks; 3,409 cases
5. Potatoes: 108 outbreaks; 3,659 cases.
6. Cheese: 83 outbreaks; 2,761 cases.
7. Ice cream: 74 outbreaks; 2,594 cases.
8. Tomatoes: 31 outbreaks; 3,292 cases.
9. Sprouts: 31 outbreaks; 2,022 cases.
10. Berries: 25 outbreaks; 3,397 cases.

Based on my digestion mishaps in China, I'd say the risks are significantly higher in China.

Precious? Maybe. But too precious to play in the traffic here, too.

Somebody has been drinking the

ffs...

Coo coo for

Next we will hear the health bennies of clearing ones lungs on the sidewalk?

Brokentime wrote:

tihZ_hO wrote: I generally steered clear from all forms of Chinese street food. Considering the hygiene habits of proper Chinese restaurant staff I'd don't want to even think about what goes on with street level establishments. (shudder)

Okay, so this is your opinion and I respect it. But are you really so precious?

I don't know where you're from, but do you really mean to tell me that health standards in food preparation are universal? No, they're not. Just because food is prepared 'a la boulevard' here, doesn't mean it's bad for you. This is the only work these people can get; do you really think they're going to go around poisoning heir customer base? I think not.

More like the Western constitution just isn't ready for the assault, and yes, that includes bacteria. I've been here over a year and a half and got all my dodgy stomachs over and done with in the first six months. Now, no problems, and I love the street food. Baozi, barbecue, chao he fan, whatever, I'm game if I'm hungry. It's an experience I'm proud of. Street food in Korea, more of less, was even better, too.

Precious??

I enjoy street food in Jakarta, where I am now, in fact some of the best tasting food comes from those small street vendors. I just stay clear of street vendors in CHINA. Because if anyone tried to pull the sh1t that Chinese do with food (melamine, slop or gutter oil) the locals would just beat the sh1t out of them, or worse!

I lived in non English speaking Asian countries since 1993 starting with China (and 1983 if you count Australia ) so please don't pass judgement on me with your 1 1/2 years in China. Its obvious to me and others you don't realize what you are eating, its not just the bacteria as wabbit touched on, which can make you deathly sick or kill.

You know what "gutter oil" is? wabbit mentioned it, and it seems you weren't in China when it became big news. Gutter oil is just what it sounds like it is, its the oil and grease trap in the street for the sewers. Well industrious Chinese figured out that you can recycle and refine this oil and use it again for cooking and who do you think uses this gutter oil? Yep, cheap local and street restaurants.

Here's the link. The nice thing about China is no matter how many times someone is caught doing something and it goes away it always comes back but this time its better hidden. Think melamine in milk, infant formulas and pet food.

Yes, as I said forget the bacteria mate, the milk you are drinking could have melamine in it and its dishing your kidneys. Oh the government stopped that didn't they? If so why is it then melamine laced milk and milk products still hits the news every so often??

How about the bad oranges sprayed with industrial orange dye a year or two ago??

The list goes on mate...

Many Chinese have said to me its getting to where you can't really trust what you eat anymore and you are going to trust a Chinese street vendor??

LMAO!!

Wow, at 8.35am in the morning you have time enough to write that. I want your job.

Yeah, I know what gutter oil is, and have heard of dodgy batches of various fruit, veg, seafood and others doing the rounds. The big question is, how do you know? How do you know if they're using it? I'm sure it's all fine and well to just assume outright that all the street food vendors are at it (for cheapness or convenience or whatever), but they can't all be at it. What about baozi - there's no cooking oil used to cook them. They're steamed. But I suppose now it's the contents of said baozi that are bad?

Exactly what is one supposed to eat if one is hungry about town? McDonalds? Oh yes, there's a healthier solution. I'd love to have the time and energy to cook my own food each day and carry it literally in my pocket wherever I go, but that's just impossible.

So you've roundly condemned pretty much anything edible in China - begs the question, what exactly do YOU eat when you're peckish? But I'll take a guess and say that maybe you're a vegetarian or something, or just eat tofu or soya or something.

I don't have as much time to write, but Yes. The contents of the baozi are often bad - especially if it's meat stuffing. And the flour to make the white buns have been bleached.

I'm sure there're honest sellers out there - what do your tastebuds tell you? Examine the contents and viscosity of the oil.

Brokentime wrote:So you've roundly condemned pretty much anything edible in China - begs the question, what exactly do YOU eat .......

You eat knowing you are poisoning urself. The key is limiting long term exposure to toxic substances. QED, eat less of foodstuffs that 'could' contain unhealthy substances. That yummy fried bread you like so much not only is being cooked in swill oil but the chef figured out that by putting plastic in the dough makes it deliciously crunchy!

Rule of thumb street food....eat where there is a line. Don't eat it often.

Sputnik-11 wrote:I don't have as much time to write, but Yes. The contents of the baozi are often bad - especially if it's meat stuffing. And the flour to make the white buns have been bleached.

I'm sure there're honest sellers out there - what do your tastebuds tell you? Examine the contents and viscosity of the oil.

Just eat the spicy meat bao. Cuts out any off taste so it has to be good for you...

You know, it's sad, because I really love the taste of those spicy meat baozi

Never heard of this place, but doesnt seem to be worth it anyway.

I personally hate it that people dont know that beer should be COLD! Frecking annoying when they ask for hot or cold coffee and warm or cold beer? It's simple guys. coffee WARM beer COLD.

TIC wrote: I personally hate it that people dont know that beer should be COLD!

China disagrees with you! If they put all the beer in the fridge they wouldn't sell any to the locals, cold drinks are "bad for health" you know!

Brokentime wrote:I've come to expect that when I go out, either with friends or my girlfriend, or a combination of both, replete with Chinese speakers, at least 20% of what we order either won't show up or will be incorrect in some fashion. I've come to accept this and it's just a normal way of life here. For whatever reason, either waiters/waitresses don't listen properly or there is some "failure to communicate" with the kitchen or just general incompetence, things get messed up.

That said, I did have an awful experience from a Western perspective last July or August. The new Glo Bar and Cafe was opening on Dongping road, and I was on my way home and decided to stop into the ground floor cafe to pick up some pastries to have later. Went in and there was a Western woman behind the counter, seemingly training the Chinese staff. She was relaying what she needed in English. I was at the counter and was going to order some things and the trainer stood behind the Chinese staff member as she took my order. The girl, obviously a bit nervous, had to repeat my order to me once or twice, which was fine (despite being only 3 things) and things got moving. I went down to the cash register and paid and they began boxing my stuff. One small box would do and when they began putting the pastries gingerly into a larger box, I just told them to use a smaller one, that it'd be okay. The trainer was a bit full-on, and started grabbing stuff out of the Chinese staff member's hand, and eventually got the things into a small box. Before I left, I thought I'd ask her how it's going. She told me that the Chinese staff were hard to deal with, and stupid. As she said that, one of the male members of staff looked up and over towards her, and then to me and our gazes met. He knew exactly what she had said, and seeing as she was training them in English, quelle surprise! I made a withering look in the direction of the trainer and made my excuses. Never went back there.

Have to say that I was fairly embarrassed to be a Westerner that day, after what this overweight Polish good-for-nothing said in front of the people who were trusting her to point them on the straight and narrow.

Fine, bash Chinese staff all you want, but behind them there is likely an idiot Westerner who doesn't know their arsehole from their elbow.

A great story to highlight a really relevant perspective. I find it very interesting how so many Western responses to things that are different or frustrating or out of the rhelms of our understanding, is to become rude and indignant. I have lived as an expat in European countries and the same applies there. It's always the other people, the people who's country we are living in, who are stupid. Maybe it's fair to assume that we're all a bit stupid and that intolerance only serves to highlight this.

Well, to be fair, there was a baozi incident a year or so ago. I don't quite remember the details, but I bealieve it was somewhere in Zhejiang. Sure, you can take pride in loving the back alley food, just as one can take pride in being able to consume a lot of the "all you can drink for too cheap not to be fake" booze. I'll admit I've had my share of both and hey, I'm still walking and haven't become radioactive yet.

The thing is, you do have to acknowledge that Chinese food, as with many other Made in China things, sometimes requires a bit of caution because quality is often sacrificed for sake of cutting cost. Generally, my rule of thumb anywhere is, "if you want a good experience, don't look in the kitchen", and that goes from local joints to the overpriced western ones in Shanghai.

As an adult, which I assume you are, eating, say, chao mian, from the street stalls once in a while will not kill you instantly or do immediate long term damage. It's the same for fake alcohol and cigarettes. The problem is, very few people, local or foreign, are remotely surprised when they hear the stories. After all, people in China are generally disposable, and if it's malamine that will get your milk powder moving a bit cheaper, any casualties are just a drop in the already polluted, infested ocean. Personally, when I hear a story about the latest food scandal, I just kind of shrug and think "hmm...next time I'm peckish, I'll make sure to stay away from that."

Oh and tofu or soya or something are the kinds of things which are so commonly used here, it would be no surprise if the latest scandal involves chou dofu getting it's "chouiness" from sewage or something....

The thing is, you do have to acknowledge that Chinese food, as with many other Made in China things, sometimes requires a bit of caution because quality is often sacrificed for sake of cutting cost. Generally, my rule of thumb anywhere is, "if you want a good experience, don't look in the kitchen", and that goes from local joints to the overpriced western ones in Shanghai.

I completely agree. I also remember many incidences in England of some food or other containing carcinogenics and a mass frenzi of 'oh my god, I ate that once, I'm going to die!' How many actually did? In a country of 1.3 billion, the cases of people dying from contamination, while tragic, are statistically pretty low. Plus, apparently using roll on deodorant can give you breast cancer, smoked salmon is also pretty dangerous and at the moment, massive blocks of ice are falling from apartment buildings across the whole of Eastern Europe!!??
In regards to the dodgy food of China: if you are going to get up in arms about that, should I assume you also avoid any 100RMB all you can drink bars? How about alcohol in China in general? With no trading standards agency, you never know what you are buying. You could pay 500RMB for a bottle of fine bourdeux and it actually be grape flavoured drain water with a healthy amount of ethonol. It's pretty hilarious how many expats you see, ranting about how disgusting the Chinese food is, how unhealthy the lifestyle is, how unhygenic (did you really say that!!??) the people are, while smoking a Chinese cigarette and sipping on a vodka and coke.

sophiejane wrote:In a country of 1.3 billion, the cases of people dying from contamination, while tragic, are statistically pretty low.

How low? How do you know?

rickettyrabbit wrote:

sophiejane wrote:In a country of 1.3 billion, the cases of people dying from contamination, while tragic, are statistically pretty low.

How low? How do you know?

To be fair, it's impossible to know for sure, given the restrictions on government statistics. However, if expats were becoming seriously ill from eating street food, you can be sure we would know about it. How often do you hear such reports?

I don't think the risk is only to expats, and it's also not only to people eating street food. But unless it makes one immediately ill, it's difficult to know to what it should be attributed.

It's a jungle out there.

The street food safety is an issue, but I think next in line will be heart disease and cholesterol if the growth in bakeries and cake shops here continues.

sophiejane wrote:

rickettyrabbit wrote:

sophiejane wrote:In a country of 1.3 billion, the cases of people dying from contamination, while tragic, are statistically pretty low.

How low? How do you know?

To be fair, it's impossible to know for sure, given the restrictions on government statistics. However, if expats were becoming seriously ill from eating street food, you can be sure we would know about it. How often do you hear such reports?

FYI: all Chinese health stats are extrapolated from 10% of the population, mostly city dwellers. As for becoming ill, if you eat out here on a daily basis you'll probably get food poisoning about once a week.

Brokentime wrote:The street food safety is an issue, but I think next in line will be heart disease and cholesterol if the growth in bakeries and cake shops here continues.

And Mcdonalds and KFC on every corner. But hey, we trust what we know!

Hell, I know Maccy Ds and KFC and I never step foot inside them. Ditto Burger King (not like you can even find one here - I only found 2 in all of Shanghai).

The sad truth is that if you took everything you read on this forum, or even in this thread, at face value, you'd never leave your apartment, never eat out, never drink water, and eat nothing but cabbages you grew yourself.

The way some people go on here, you'd think they wanted to live forever. A knee-jerk response would be to tell all these "don't eat any street food" people to just **** off home, but you can't say that really. I see their points; this country has a genuine problem controlling not even the quality of the food, but the essential safety of it. People die every day eating this stuff and the problems are the quintessential elephant in the room.

All you can really say is to practice moderation in everything.

KopyKatKiller wrote:As for becoming ill, if you eat out here on a daily basis you'll probably get food poisoning about once a week.

I have eaten around 1200 meals out in Shanghai, from the whole spectrum of prices and cuisines. I ve had street food a few hundred times. Now I may be stupid for having done this, I may die at 45, but the fact remains that I got the runs twice and it was for 1 day.

Brokentime wrote: What about baozi - there's no cooking oil used to cook them. They're steamed. But I suppose now it's the contents of said baozi that are bad?

Exactly what is one supposed to eat if one is hungry about town? McDonalds?

Dude you have NO idea where you are do you?

I guess you weren't around the chopped-newspaper-and-lye in the baozi scandal of 2008?


Yeah that's pretty much exactly what the locals do. Hit KFC and McDonalds every day. My colleagues have thick coupon books from KFC MickyD's and Dairy Queen that are quite well-thumbed.

Chavster wrote:Dude you have NO idea where you are do you?

I guess you weren't around the chopped-newspaper-and-lye in the baozi scandal of 2008?

Yeah that's pretty much exactly what the locals do. Hit KFC and McDonalds every day. My colleagues have thick coupon books from KFC MickyD's and Dairy Queen that are quite well-thumbed.

I'd rather eat some of the Daily Mail in a baozi than McDonald's excrement any day, mate.

But that's the crux of the issue, isn't it - die from either being slowly poisoned by toxins and muck in the food, or from obesity and diabetes from McDonalds and KFC and the like.

Depends on what your poison is, I suppose (no pun intended).

Sadly that's the choice the a lot of locals face. No everyone has the ability to go out and source trusted ingredients or go all organic or even do much of their own cooking. The average wage-slave in Shanghai eats a LOT of fangbian mian and C-store swill.

Of course there are a lot of rich folks here in Shanghai that can be seen stuffing their maw daily at Burger King but that's a whole other issue.