There is some mention in earlier topics about MSG. Although it is used as a flavour enhancer, to some people it is a flavour killer making everything taste over salty and artificial. Added to food throughout Asia, especially local food stalls and Chinese restaurants it has the horrible side effect of causing major headaches in some. I usually get a three day headache after consuming MSG. Major thirst (it is a salt) and a cognitive fogg and lack of focus. By day three the pain and fogg lifts and one swears never to return to the eatery where "that" food was sold. Now there are other food poisoning symptoms that produce headache but for me non of these are as bad as MSG.

Glutamates: - MSG 621
Glutamates belong to a group of amino acids called excitotoxins. Excitotoxins are substances that over-stimulate neurons. Excessive over-stimulation may result in the death of the neuron (brain cell).
MSG or monosodium glutamate occurs naturally in many plants such as tomatoes, spinach and grapes. This form of MSG is bound with proteins and is in low concentration. The artificial manufacture of MSG involves stripping off these proteins and greatly increasing the concentration. This processed free glutamate is in far greater quantities than that found in nature. Manufacturers are aware that the public are starting to avoid products with MSG or 621 so are using similar products with a different name or number. Some of these other additives may have different or more severe reactions to MSG. 620 L-Glutamic acid 625 Magnesium L-glutamate
621 Monosodium L-glutamate 627 Disodium 5’-glutamate
622 Monopotassium L-glutamate 631 Disodium 5’-isonate
623 Calcium glutamate 635 Disodium 5’-ribonucleotides
624 Monoammonium L-glutamate

... and nerves and can stimulate hyperactivity in children. Studies also show a link between MSG and obesity and a lack of hunger control.

In relation to the above where will I find restaurants in Shanghai that do not use MSG?
In SE Asia I have to stick to a few known and usually large hotels where I know they do not use this addative. Or, shock, prepare my own food!

You can go to ANY restaurant. Just say "I don't want MSG ."

"Wo bu yao wei jing."
我不要味精.

TONES： wei4 jing1

They are always willing to comply.

How about drinking more pure water>
Headaches are mostly a call from the body
that water is badly needed.

If MSG would be soo bad then 2 billion people
in China, Japan, Taiwan, Korea, Vietnam, etc
would all suffer from those symptoms like
headache etc.

The main cause for westerners for headache is
coffee. Coffee is a dehydrant. And coffee drinkers
usually never drink pure water. Especially in Summer
here with temperatures 30 degrees and up the body
needs more water than usual.

SindbadMalone wrote:How about drinking more pure water>
Headaches are mostly a call from the body
that water is badly needed.

If MSG would be soo bad then 2 billion people
in China, Japan, Taiwan, Korea, Vietnam, etc
would all suffer from those symptoms like
headache etc.

probably because the msg makes them so thirsty afterwards that they drink a lot of water, thus rehydrating themselves and avoiding the headache!

...i hate that cotton-mouth feeling after eating something with lots of msg. once had a clear-broth beef noodle soup (co-workers took me there). yeah, guess how that clear-broth got its flavor? gave me cotton-mouth that whole DAY!

I don't know what to think of MSG. A few years ago they did a bind test in a Dutch TV program. Some people who claimed to get sick from MSG were filmed after giving a meal with MSG (they thought). They all felt the symptoms they said they had until the program revealed there had been no MSG in the meal....

My MSG headaches are not related to lack of water nor coffee. I drink 2-3 litres of water a day and only have a coffee once or twice a week.
See below these extracts that point you to information about the problems of MSG and eyesight as well as some other points of interest related to the negative effects.

Wu Mao - says to ask for it not to be put in my food and although I have tried this I find that the cook/chef must have an auto response and just puts it in anyway or the staff do not understand why it is a problem or forget.

There are other nervous system stimulants that tend to disrupt healthy function of the endocrine system. These include sugar and MSG (monosodium glutamate). MSG is something you have to look for on food labels because it's hidden in a lot of grocery store products. This is a highly toxic ingredient. It will not only cause sleep disorders, it will also tend to cause migraine headaches and can even lead to Alzheimer's disease. MSG does not belong in the human body. It can even interfere with normal appetite regulatory functions and make it almost impossible for people to lose weight, especially if they are currently obese.

Taurine link It is also well known that the amino acid taurine is required in the normal healthy development of the retina in both humans and cats. That is why both baby formula and cat food in the United States both require taurine to be added. Note: Taurine deficiency can be induced by MSG ingestion.

A link between MSG use and poor eyesight?

In Asian countries, which are well known for copious use of MSG, not only is stroke incidence high, but poor eyesight is dramatically increasing. See the following links:

Rates of Myopia and stroke:

http://www.dpa.org.sg/DPA/news/news_august_2000-3.htm

http://www1.moe.edu.sg/speeches/2001/sp24082001.htm

In China:

50% of teenagers in China today are nearsighted compared to 15% in the 1970’s:

http://www.chinatoday.com/data/data.htm

Higher rates of myopia in Asians:

http://www.health.gov/healthypeople/Doc ... Vision.htm

NOTE: Processed MSG has been used as a flavor enhancer only since 1908, when Kikunae Ikeda of Japan discovered its flavor enhancing properties. Contrary to popular belief, the Chinese have NOT been using it for thousands of years, but just shy of one hundred. Also, American food was devoid of it until after World War II.

Macular Degeneration

New information regarding a gene related to macular degeneration:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory?id=571360

Newsflash. Move back to your country if you cant handle local customs. Newsflash.

for some, maybe the effects of msg are psychosomatic. for me, the thirstiness and cotton-mouth are definitely not. i often don't even realize i've ingested a lot of msg until i get it. and small amounts of msg usually won't give me any noticeable effects.

i think there are plenty of studies showing msg has no directly proven lasting harmful effects, but it's still not something you want to consume too much of.

as for poor eyesight in china - that's true, i think. sometimes i look around the room in a large meeting and see every single one of my chinese colleagues in there are wearing glasses, all except me. i didn't read any of the links above, but i do want to repeat again: correlation != causation.

ZhongNanHai8mg wrote:Newsflash. Move back to your country if you cant handle local customs. Newsflash.

It is a "custom" of less than one hundred years. Not that long in Chinese historical sense dont you think. I have a beautiful bowl created by a Chinese craftsman one thousand years ago. That is a custom I admire and support. The other hardly rates as a "custom", more like a bad habit!

So I ask, retorically, why were the Chinese able to enjoy their food for thousands of years without MSG..

Anyway if restaurants want to offer dishes without MSG, I'm sure that to advertise this, even if it is only some a small part of the menu, but clearly stated as such, they might be suprised how this increases their business/sales of those dishes, from people of all nationalities who do not like to have toxic artificial additives that create a false taste.
And if given the choice those locals who do not want their child subjected to an additives that might harm the child's brain and eyes then these dishes would also be for them as well.

ZhongNanHai8mg wrote:Newsflash. Move back to your country if you cant handle local customs. Newsflash.

Shanghaiexpat Awards: Entering you for the most moronic post...and most unoriginal.

[quote="bleepingbleeper"]for some, maybe the effects of msg are psychosomatic. for me, the thirstiness and cotton-mouth are definitely not. i often don't even realize i've ingested a lot of msg until i get it. and small amounts of msg usually won't give me any noticeable effects.

i think there are plenty of studies showing msg has no directly proven lasting harmful effects, but it's still not something you want to consume too much of.

as for poor eyesight in china - that's true, i think. sometimes i look around the room in a large meeting and see every single one of my chinese colleagues in there are wearing glasses, all except me. i didn't read any of the links above, but i do want to repeat again: correlation != causation.[/quote

Maybe the real issue is, do people want additives in their food, when they are informed and given the choice.

MSG is sold in supermarkets in the salt section, in crystal form, looking just like table salt. It easily dissolves into food so why not put it on the table in a shaker and allow people to sprinkle it according to their taste. Given the choice they would most likely decline to do so.

Mono sodium ( a SALT) Glutamate ...what about the folk who are instructed (by their doctor), or choose to lower their salt intake, prefering a low salt diet for health reasons. The cooks/chefs will most likely be adding regular salt (sodium) as well as the MS (sodium) G.

as for poor eyesight in china - that's true, i think. sometimes i look around the room in a large meeting and see every single one of my chinese colleagues in there are wearing glasses, all except me.

Yes but what percentage of those people only had the frames with no lens?...

^honestly, i have never seen that in china...

/3yrs

bleepingbleeper wrote:^honestly, i have never seen that in china...

/3yrs

I've seen that fairly often recently. I was made aware of it as my local coffee shop sells empty frames and I'd thought that odd. So far, it's always been girls with no glass in their, er, glasses.

Lenses needed in the frames so one may focus on the menu to find dishes without Monosodium Glutamate.

I have no problems with small amounts of MSG, but there is some trigger level above which I will come down with a massive migraine lasting many hours. No amount of rehydration fixes that.

For my level of sensitivity, I simply stay away from noodle soups (especially Yunan rice noodles) and friend rice dishes. For actual main meat, fish, and veggie dishes, I never have a problem since the MSG doesn't get mixed in as well. Strangely enough, I've rarely have problems with Japanese style ramen noodles even though they have MSG.

I picked up one of those Osim head massagers and they do wonders helping to pass the time waiting for the MSG migraine to wear off. Breo head massagers are also good knockoffs of the Osim if you have a smaller head circumference.

Here's a pretty good article from a few years back about MSG health scares.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2005/jul/10/foodanddrink.features3

MSG isn't needed if the meat and veg are fresh. What it's primarily used for is to make stale, semi-rotten, or otherwise bad or tasteless food taste good. The fact that so many people use it in their cooking here says a lot about the quality of the food they are eating. I've asked many Chinese about MSG. At first they never seem to know what i am talking about, but when they finally figure it out they say it's a spice ???? If I get too much MSG, say in a soup for example, I typically get an odd cold vibrating sensation starting at the base of my neck and working its way down my body. Usually I have less than 15 minutes left before I pass out for 5 - 6 hours after this sensation starts!

Do you get the same sensation when eating a back of crisps (potato chips) or any of the thousands of other normal western foods laced with MSG?

jzzzzzzz wrote:Here's a pretty good article from a few years back about MSG health scares.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2005/jul/10/foodanddrink.features3

Brilliant article. I particularly like this quote from Patrick Holford:

"'I'm a practitioner and there's no doubt that kids with behavioural problems react to MSG,' he says. 'I've given them the foods, and seen the different reactions. Glutamate is a brain stimulant in the way that it is given, because it enhances sensory perception in the sense that things taste much better - and some kids become very hyperactive.'

The above should get some sort of award for cramming the most number of non-sequiturs into the smallest space possible.

I'm now off to celebrate by sprinkling some MSG and aspartame over my MMR vaccine for supper.

jzzzzzzz wrote:Do you get the same sensation when eating a back of crisps (potato chips) or any of the thousands of other normal western foods laced with MSG?

^^No. The funny thing is. I don't avoid MSG and in fact never heard anything about it until the first time I had this nasty experience while living in Germany. I didn't know what was wrong with me when I woke up so i called a doctor to make a house call (yes they still do that in Germany). When I described to him what had happened, he laughed and said I got too much MSG! And that it was nothing to worry about. It could have been the concentration of MSG in the soup I ate, the fact that it was my first meal of the day, or the particular balance of my body on that day??? It's happened a couple times since and I know to quickly find a place I can lie down. I'd hate to pass out in public somewhere!

For me MSG consumption = three day migraine.

I'm a person who reads food labels for all additives. The codes mentioned above for various MSG type names. Most of the time I stay away from packaged and processed food and look for restaurants that do not add it to the food.

If you search under counteracting MSG overload or similar there will be lots of suggestions both medications and alternatives.

SUPPLEMENTS
Some individuals find relief from taking the following, not just during the reaction, but daily as a preventive measure:
Co-Q10
Magnesium supplements or foods rich in magnesium
Vitamin B6 supplements or foods rich in B6
Taurine
Check the fillers in capsules or tablets and watch out for MSG additives. IMPORTANT: Please check with your doctor to make sure these won't interact with any medications you are taking.
http://www.helium.com/items/1107767-msg ... e-food-msg

If I know I've eaten too much MSG then I try the following to counteract, works to a certain extent, if the migraine has not started.

As well as drinking lots of water.
Eat bananas and apricots (dry, stewed or fresh) bot of which are high in Potassium.
Take magnesium supplements.
I have no medical condition nor take medications that countraindicate taking either potassium or magnesium supplements

There's no telling some people.

How about if you eat a big bowl of tomato spaghetti with lots of parmasan grated on top? This will have as much glutamate as you would find in any meal and a lot of salt too.

My link above explains the source of the myopia scares. Basically it's the standard nutritionist nonsense science:

in 2002, for example, New Scientist got very excited over a report that MSG might damage your eyesight, after Japanese scientists announced that they had produced retinal thinning in baby rats fed with MSG. It turned out they were putting 20 grams of MSG in every 100g of rat food - an amazing amount, given that, in the UK, we adults consume about four grams of it each a week. (One project took people who were convinced their asthma was caused by MSG and fed them up to six grams of it a day, without ill-effects).

and the brain damage scares go back 40 years to a completely pointless experiment:

...Dr Ho came Dr John Olney at Washington University, who in 1969 injected and force-fed newborn mice with huge doses of up to four grams/kg bodyweight of MSG.

I'm not belittling your experiences, just trying to understand something that doesn't really make sense to me and doesn't seem to be explained by science.

According to most 'managers' at Chinese hot pot restaurants, they DO NOT add MSG to the broth. Don't know how true this is, but that's what I've been told

If you frequent a local restaurant, they will usually oblige - Don't add any ...., or .....
and you'll be able to enjoy a meal without worrying about the consequences.

jzzzzzzzz,
I'm not belittling your experiences, just trying to understand something that doesn't really make sense to me and doesn't seem to be explained by science.

If you have no negative effect after eating food containing MSG and also lack empathy as well I understand why you are disputing the above comments but I wonder why, you are bothering as it is not a concern for you, unless you have something invested in an MSG factory. Or some sort of MSG advocate.

I return to one of my earlier comments and this would be the case even if I did not get a three day migraine from MSG.
i) I do not wish to eat any food with additives (regardless of the headaches) and therefore I try to minimise this as much as possible.
ii)I'm not wanting to add more sodium to my food especially when I have no way of telling how much.

If I had young children I would not want them to be subjected to either of the above. It is irresponsible of restuarants and food producers to use additives when they are not good for peoples health even if they do not cause headaches.

MSG is not added to improve nutritional value. It is added for what I consider to be the economic benefit of the seller of the food without the knowledge or consent of the person eating it.

I've tried asking restuarants not to add MSG to my food but have found this does not always work because they just want to appear nice by saying yes then forgetting the request.

Also there is credible research if you bother to look for it on the web that supports what I've been saying above.

As for the pasta sauce, make my own, without salt or MSG and add a few shavings of cheese.
In my home country, it is not such an issue because the food regulations are strict, all labels will declare the additives.

If you like MSG in your food I'm not trying to tell you not to eat it. I feel you should have the right to eat as much MSG as you desire.

anter wrote:If you have no negative effect after eating food containing MSG and also lack empathy as well I understand why you are disputing the above comments but I wonder why, you are bothering as it is not a concern for you, unless you have something invested in an MSG factory.

I do not have anything invested in an MSG factory! I am just very suspicious of unscientific 'links' made by unqualified nutritionists. Please show me the credible research you speak about. I've been trying to find some without success. I do find lots of websites that tell me there has never been a controlled scientific test that has demonstrated statistically any sensitivity.

It's accepted the man-made glutamate and naturally occurring glutamate are chemically identical. We all eat glutamate in every meal as I'm sure you know. Maybe it's the salt?

Is it ok to add garlic to food? It's an additive.

As far as glutamates being naturally in food I have no issue with that. Nature has a way of creating a balance i.e. the ration of potassium to sodium as it occurs naturally in food, as opposed to the use of salt as an additive that dramatically alters that balance.

Without the headaches I would still be against the use of MSG as an additive for all those reasons mentioned previously.
As for articles take a look at this, not the original research but you will be able to contact the authority from info in the following.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 081308.php
You will be able to get to the original via the contact in the abstract above. If there is a link to obesity then there will be one to type 2 diabetes as well. Perhaps this will be more of a concern to nutritionists than those of us who claim to get headaches from the stuff.

It's late where I am at the moment, diff time zone. So I'll find some other links tomorrow perhaps you cannot find them because of the great firewall.