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Previous landlord mortgage...what to do?

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Previous landlord mortgage...what to do?

Postby caso » Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:25 pm

What to do when you want to buy an apartment and the landlord has still to finish to pay his mortgage?
Any experience about it?
Right steps to do?

thank you for any suggestion!!
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Postby Michael » Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:33 pm

The landlord has to pay off the old mortgage before the money is transferrred to him. If he doesn't have it, he has to deal with it ( borrow it from someplace short term ). Its not up to the buyer to have to deal with this. Though it may complicate things a little, your relationshhip as tenant-landlord should not have a direct affect on your relationship as buyer and seller.
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Postby caso » Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:41 pm

thank you very much Michael.
So if the landlord asks me to give him part of the money in advance to pay off the mortage (of course against guarantee for me) , it's not acceptable right?
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Postby DrShanghai » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:46 pm

Right
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Postby mat » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:56 pm

caso wrote:thank you very much Michael.
So if the landlord asks me to give him part of the money in advance to pay off the mortage (of course against guarantee for me) , it's not acceptable right?


DEFINITELY not acceptable. If he can't get bridging finance, then there must be something dodgy at his end.

Make sure you have a good agent and great lawyer.
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Postby yu888 » Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:08 pm

It is common practice here to have the buyer provide a down payment equal or greater than the loan balance and sadly, its because the system here does not allow for a title/ escrow company to do this process that it works this way. Yes, it is a risk but those who cannot or will not do it this way will often find much less available to them. That said, I agree that a trusted agent and possibly a lawyer is a good idea if one doesnt know what one is doing. Or, maybe buy a new place to avoid this hassle?
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Postby Shangstar » Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:19 pm

definitely get a licensed Chinese lawyer / conveyancer to do it. Any deposit will probably be governed by Chinese laws and you'll get a document with a red seal on it somewhere.
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Postby Havard » Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:34 pm

I was both buyer and seller before. It is the landlord's responsibility to clear the mortgage. However, the landlord usually use the first installment from the buyer to clear the rest of the mortgage.

Typical payment schedule is like this (assuming buyer needs mortgage too):
1. Deposit to secure the deal (before signing the contract)
2. First installment (10%-30%) of the total, within X days after signing the contract
3. Second installment (10-30%) of the total, on the date of transaction at the Bureau of Estate Transaction.
4. Last payment (rest of the money) to paid by the bank (that provides mortgage to the buyer) after the new property ownership certificate is ready.
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Postby caso » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:23 am

thank you to everybody for the precious suggestions!
will let you know what will happen...
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Postby caso » Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:07 am

now we are very close to start the...procedure.
apart for the very useful suggestions about normal steps, can anybody write
suggestions about tricks, from both real estate agency or seller?
as always, any suggestion is warmly welcome, from small to big stuff!!

@shangstar: we followed your suggestion hiring a lawyer (working only with re matters) that will follow with us all the deal, step by step

thank you guys, and also thank you to stand my bad english!!
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Postby compsolutions » Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:31 am

Strongly suggest read my thread on this - seek and ye shall find ;)

I buy property here all the time (about to take the plunge on another 2).

---

Good bits excerpted below:

When you sign the contract, you typically pay 50,000RMB as deposit.

Get a receipt from the bank for the 50,000. Get a receipt from the agent for them receiving the 50,000.

If you cannot get the mortgage, you will forfeit the 50,000. If the seller pulls out, he will forfeit the same.

I *strongly* recommend you get someone to help who has done this before, and who you can trust.

The terms in the contract can be changed as per your requirements.
I'm paranoid about timing, so I usually add extra time to each stage, so that things don't go fubar.

What usually happens for loans here is that you can either go to the bank yourself, or the agent will have contacts that can get you the loan from the bank.

Its easier if the agent does that for you.

Getting a loan here is pretty easy. You won't be able to apply until you both have signed the contract to buy / sell though (thats the 2nd contract, the first is the offer to purchase).

Loans will depend on how much deposit you are paying, what kind of apt it is, and how much you are borrowing.

Old apt's (ie anything < 1990), need a 50% deposit. New apts you can put down as little as 30%.
For loans < 1.8M the bank won't need much in the way of paperwork. For amounts over that, you will need to provide tax receipts, and a whole variety of other fun things.

As a foreigner, you also need to have a work permit, and have been living here > 1 year.
You will also need to give yourself an official Chinese name; this can be arranged at the notary office.

Also, if your passport has changed since you have been here, and the numbers are different, that will cause delays.

TIPS:
*GET* Receipts for everything. Make people sign for everything money related to say they received it.

Make multiple copies of passport, work permit, residence permit. Suggest at least 10 each.

Strongly suggest make a folder with all the paperwork, and carry that with you to every meeting you'll have.


Procedure for buying an apt is something like this.

Step 1:
You give deposit to agent, and sign contract.
Seller signs contract in a day or two, and also gives deposit.
The agent holds onto that.
At this point you aren't committed *until* the seller signs.
After than point you are both committed to purchase/sell and will forfeit whatever the contract says. (Typically deposit for you/ deposit x 3 for the seller)


Step 2: (roughly 1 week later)
Once seller signs contract, you will have another contract which is the purchase contract.
You will go to the agents office, and sign, the agent will organize a notary to check the documents, and a bank person to get the details for your loan.
You will need to pay the seller some money. Typically this is a 3rd of the price of the property (can be more). You will go to the bank, and transfer this money to the seller.
They use this to pay off their mortgage (if they have one).
At this point you will need to pay the notary fee's (3000rmb+-)
The agent will show you the green book for the apt (the ownership book), make sure all the details are correct in the book.

*Checking that is extremely important*

Check the sellers name matches, the apt size is correct, etc etc etc.
The agent will keep that book until the transfer is done.

The agent will start all the paperwork for your name / purchase approval. This takes about a week for foreigners. You will need to go to the notary office with the agent if you haven't got a legal chinese name already. The agent will typically take your passport away for a few days to do this stuff. Get a receipt.

Step 3: (roughly 2 weeks - 10 working days).
The bank approves the loan, and you get the money. Yay!
You'll also need to buy insurance for the apt (mandatory with certain banks). Not expensive. Around 6000rmb per 1Million last time I checked
You and the seller go down to the local district housing office, and do the fun paperwork bit.
You'll need the multiple copies of everything I mentioned for this point mostly.
You'll both go to the bank, transfer the rest of the money to the seller.
If you are getting a mortgage, the bank will usually send someone also to take one of the essential pieces of paper.
You'll also need to pay the tax to the housing office.
The agent will hopefully have done this before, because the housing office is mayhem, with lots of queuing at different windows.

At this point the apt is essentially yours.

You'll also need to pay the agent his fee's at this point (or step 2)

Step 4: Possession (up to the seller, usually either immediately after step 3, or a week or two later).

You will pay the last of the money to the seller (usually 100,000rmb is kept back until this point).
They will have paid off all the bills, management fees, and the management office (if there is one for the building) will help you transfer the bills to your name, and give you the keys.

The apt is now yours!

Its all pretty straightforward.

If you don't speak / read chinese, I would strongly recommend getting someone to assist with the process.

Also, for every stage, double and triple check everything.
Add at least an extra week for any stage as you are a foreigner. You don't want to forfeit the contract because something takes longer. All times are flexible in contracts (you fill those in), so make sure that you give yourself ample time at each stage.


Get receipts for everything. I cannot emphasize that enough.
If something goes wrong, you want proof you have done things.

Make copies of everything for your records. eg contracts, etc.
Be prepared (eg have extra photocopies, bring *everything remotely necessary* with you to every meeting you have).

Good luck!
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Postby compsolutions » Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:33 am

I'll also add, having a lawyer may not be useful, you really want an agent or someone familiar with the process assisting you.

If you need someone, PM me, and I can introduce.
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Postby caso » Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:04 am

compsolutions wrote:I'll also add, having a lawyer may not be useful, you really want an agent or someone familiar with the process assisting you.

If you need someone, PM me, and I can introduce.


thank you very much for the long and full explanation.
about the lawyer, the one I have chosen works only in real estate field, I hope it's enough as experience!!

tahnk you again!

R.
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Postby jasonnoguchi » Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:32 am

First of all, BEFORE you sign or pay anything, make sure that house is REALLY the landlord's with NO encumbrance. There have been cases of owners second selling houses or selling houses that are no longer their (playing the admin lag).

In China, title deeds are almost always multi-owners and not all owners may be agreeable to selling the house, which leads to so many arguments on TV. You don't want to be caught in one of these. You want to make sure all the owners in the deed, no matter how insignificant in relationship to the landlord, give you their consent. Make sure you request to see their deed BEFORE signing or agreeing to anything.

Make sure you don't let the owner force your hand into any "creative financing" arrangements , especially if they are selling the house before the initial 5 years period if up.

Also, make sure you understand the deed type. There are houses in Shanghai, especially the older ones in the french concessionary, which are government owned with only tenant title and not ownership title.

Under no circumstances give money directly to owner or agent without third party witness. Also, under no circumstances give money directly to owner before finalising the purchase agreement.

In my few real estate dealings in China so far, I have encountered all manners of trickery from the owners right up to the day of registering at the registrar. So beware.
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Postby caso » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:19 pm

thank you jason!
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Postby caso » Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:37 pm

Hi everybody, I'd like to thank you again for all the suggestions.
Hiring a lawyer had been really useful, but all of them also very important.
Today, after 45 days, I finally got the Certificate of Real Estate Ownership with my name on it!!!
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Postby tejizo » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:21 pm

This thread is really helpful. =)
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Re: Previous landlord mortgage...what to do?

Postby SingleMalt » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:40 pm

This is a very helpful thread. Should be highlighted as a FAQ. Thanks All!
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