I will move to Shanghai in Jan and would like your help to find a decent villa in Pudong for my family of 5. I was told that given my RMB50K housing allowance, I can't find a villa (4 or 5 bedrooms) in the JinQiao area and i have to look at those compounds outside of middle ring or outer ring. My work place is in LuJiaZhui and my children will be attending DUCKS. I am moving my family in March and i have from now till March to find us a home. Given the current inflation and high rentals especially those compounds inside/near the inner ring, I have no choice but to find one further away from my work place and school.

I have narrowed my selections to those along LongDong Ave (Buckingham preferred) and would like to find out more on the amentities around/near Buckingham such as nearest supermarket, metro and malls. Thank you.

I would love to live on LongDong Ave.

What is up with these people who say they can't find a decent place to live for 50K? I just can't get my head around that. I mean I get that the OP is only going on what someone else has told him, but seriously? 50,000 rmb a month is not enough? How can that be?

OP:

It is hard to believe you can't find a 4 BR Villa in Jin Qiao for 50k or less... even a cursory look at an expat oriented real estate web site shows a number of Villas in Green Hills, Willow Brook, and Shimao Lakeside for under 50k. I had a friend that moved out of a 4+BR Villa in Willowbrook last year - they were paying 35k... prices couldn't go up that much that fast.

Have you seen Buckingham? Gorgeous places but I visited there 3 years ago... its off a highway - not close to anything without a car. I thought it felt a little weird though... liked San Marino better - more cosy, more trees - but it will have the same problem being nowhere near a supermarket or metro without a car.

Hope you find someplace you like.

During my look see trip, I was told that the take up rate for these compounds in JinQaio area was 99%. I was shown a 4 bedroom unit at Green villa (65k), at Greenhills (60k), at Viscaya(68k), at Regency Park (60k) with the only exceptIon of a 3 bedroom townhouse (35k). Don't even mention Willowbrooke (>70k) The agent said that the rentals had gone up a fair bit after the world Expo and the demand for villas within the inner ring far exceeds the supply. Likewise, schools in green city have limited vacancies, I have to put a non-returnable deposit with no guarantee of a place. The next available compound is Tomson golf/garden. I don't like the power lines running across the compound.

I like what I see at Buckingham (compare with San Marino). Most villas are decent size, tastefully furnished and with large garden. Only issue is my kids will have to wake up early for school. 20 min to JinQiao and another 25 min to LuJiaZhui. I don't mind the 45 to 50 min journey daily. I am concerned for my spouse who does the groceries and other errands for the kids.

O/P Agree with click.
You are being given the "expat run around".
This is how it goes:
Kids come first of course. So proximity to school is # 1
Work comes second.
The # 2 spouse comes third.

Dump your agent.
Please don't tell me you are not using one. If you are using one, they are no good. Dump them.
If you are not using one, then you are stupid.

You should get an adequate place, suitable for all members of your family, for about 1/2 your budget.
Of course it is a little harder to find 4-5 bedrooms, as this is a one child policy country, so that automatically throws you into a "rich Expat" bracket, but a GOOD agent will cut through that crap.

John.

The issue is, these compounds are in great demand and there are expats with bigger budget willing to pay to secure the these villas, especially Green villa. Hopefully, more villas are avialable in the new year. I am prepared to wait out.

Since the agent was assigned by the company, he knew what was the budget and select villas for viewing based on it. The look see trip was to finetune my requirements in terms of likes and dislikes. I don't mind standard furnishing as seen in these develpers' owned villas. As mentioned, i have seen tastefully furhished villas by individual owners in Buckingham and Regency Park. Convenience like closer to school, supermarket etc is priority.

I guess I don't understand what the big deal is about having a 'villa', which is just a fancy-pants way of saying, 'house', right? I don't get why a person would be willing to pay well over the odds for a house which I'm sure though nice enough is not really all that exceptional (by Western standards) on a postage-stamp sized lot waaaay the heck away from everything, when they could get a really kick-ass apartment with a superb view and access to all of the good things about living in Shanghai at their disposal. "Kids" can't really be the excuse, since clearly there are many apartment compounds that have oodles of expat families with multiple kids living what appear to me to be quite satisfying lives. What is it about a villa that people feel they need?

I'm genuinely curious. I understand the people have a right to want what they want, and if people have the means and they are willing to pay what seems to me to be an absurd amount of money to get it, hey, no skin off my nose. I just don't understand what the appeal is. But, I'm a city girl, so maybe it has something to do with why people who live in suburbs take enormous amounts of pride in their lawns, and other great mysteries.

Hey Klick -

As another high rise dweller who debated this very issue with her husband before initially reluctantly agreeing to the swish apartment - I totally get why someone would want to live in a 'villa'.

First of all - for most of these families, cost is not an issue. The company pays and their budget allows. If they paid less for an apartment, they wouldn't get the difference back... so why not go for the best you can get?

Believe it or not, some people didn't exactly come here by choice. Even if they were game for the experience, many of these families would have just rather stayed where they were.... so having access to all the 'fun' of Shanghai isn't so important.

And some people do enjoy the City, but prefer to have the peaceful neighborhood to come home to, or to wake up to on a Sunday morning.

Kids do matter - yes there are kids in our apartment complex - but my kids LOVE LOVE LOVE to hang out with their friends in JinQiao because all the kids just come out of their houses and play in the parks and cul-de-sacs. Frankly - living in an apartment, my kids spend too much time in front of the computer and TV.

I came here for the long haul (planning for at least 5 years) so I dug in, learned the language, how to live on less than a King's expat allowance etc... but some people are just here for the assignment. No need to assimilate... just in and out, get some travel in, grab souveniers to take home. Maybe they just want to maintain their lifestyle - volunteer at the school or community center, take some classes, make some friends.

Sometimes I look jeolously upon my 'villa' dwelling friends, but I love my apartment and the quick commute to Puxi.

Still Juan - I think your agent sucks and you should call up another one (we used wellwellsh.com) just to take you around and give you some leverage.

Just wanted to put my two bob's worth in here on the villas in Jin Qiao. We have a client with a budget of around 50k and have found some villas close to that mark at Vizcaya, Tomson Golf, Greenhills and Green Villas. Regency Park and Willowbrook are the toughest to negotiate with and 60k is the bottom price. You have to be careful with Willowbook compound as there are 3 phases.....first and second are older and are known as Greenhills and the latest big villas are called Willowbrook. Older villas at Greenhills go for 40-60k but the newer Willowbrook are all well over 60k.

It is a quieter time of the year now so things are definitely negotiable. You have a company assigned agent (CAA) who will use up all of your budget to get their commission. They will bump up prices in the hope that you go back and get more money.

This whole CAA scheme keeps prices inflated. It's all one big game and the locals are laughing all the way to the bank. MNC's are starting to wake up to it but it is very hard to move the stranglehold corrupt agents have on MNCs here.

If I were you I would check if you have the choice to use more than one agent (many now have 2 or 3 providers) and see what options there are out there.

Hi ladylady - I understand where you're coming from, but I still don't "get it", if you see what I mean, ha ha. But like I said, everyone is free to want what they want, it's their choice.

(I would also argue that everyone - aside from children - comes here by choice - it's just that sometimes the consequences of not doing it are less appealing than those of doing it, LOL. But that's a whole other subject!)

Agreed Klick - People do have choices - they just might not like the choices they have!

And I agree to with what you said about mediocre, overpriced houses. That is what convinced me to take our housing allowance and use it for a GREAT apartment instead of a crappy house. Seriously - some of the houses I saw for rent at $8,000 USD a month when we first came over were worse then houses I shared in college.

And another thing people don't often consider is the cost of utilities in these not very well built Villas - my friends pay 3X what we pay for our apt utilities.

I also like the transportation options... I can wave down a Taxi almost always, and the subway is only a 20 min walk. I even learned to take a Bus (!!) to the local mall thanks to a college girl I hired to do the homework with the kids before I got home from work. Try doing that in Buckingham Palace Villa Gardens!

Adrienne wrote:Just wanted to put my two bob's worth in here on the villas in Jin Qiao. We have a client with a budget of around 50k and have found some villas close to that mark at Vizcaya, Tomson Golf, Greenhills and Green Villas. Regency Park and Willowbrook are the toughest to negotiate with and 60k is the bottom price. You have to be careful with Willowbook compound as there are 3 phases.....first and second are older and are known as Greenhills and the latest big villas are called Willowbrook. Older villas at Greenhills go for 40-60k but the newer Willowbrook are all well over 60k.........If I were you I would check if you have the choice to use more than one agent (many now have 2 or 3 providers) and see what options there are out there.

If there are willing takers, who are we to blame the landlords! Sound like the rentals in these compounds have gone up heaps. Advice also came from my colleagues who reside in JinQiao. Green villa is oversubscribed, unless Adrienne is able to help in my search for 4 bdrm/50k rental in green villa, greenhills, regency park or vizcaya. I have the final say whom I would like to go with to secure the lease. I am on assignment here for 3 to 5 years on full expat terms. I can wait till March when my family join me. BTW, anyone has any info to share on Buckingham?

Well there are a number of issus to consider.
1. How much 'whiteman tax' you are paying? This can be up to 50% on what the Chinese are paying.
2. How much is your agent getting in the 'red enverlope'? This can be 1 months rent/year.
3. How much is your caa getting in the 'red enverlope'? Theres no such thing as a free lunch!

It makes me laugh when I walk about he local shops here in Pudong and look in the estate agnts windows. When I see the price of some of the large componds around the park, I think westerns must be stupid!

I know some Koreans who are paid a fix amount to live and work in Shanghai. Anything they do not spend they get to keep. So you can imagine how hardthey are going to haggle a discount on rent and school fees.

There is no reaon why the OP has to worry about the Toy Money given to the family to rent as the MNC claims it from tax. I know self employed westerns who buy their own appartmens as the 'rent' then becomes an investment.

If it was the OP money I am sure they would count every penny!
PS Wait till he OP asks about school fees at $25,000 USD/child!

Right on Mr H.

It is sad that people on a fat Co. allowance force the prices of rentals up for those that are not.
It is very common for backhanders to move between the Co. and the agent.
This is simply tacked on the rental.

Yes, SAD.

ladylady wrote:Still Juan - I think your agent sucks and you should call up another one (we used wellwellsh.com) just to take you around and give you some leverage.

Spoke to consultant from wellwellsh and he confirmed that the rental in JinQiao area has gone up after the expo. There are more expats looking to lease and not many houses are available now. Even houses in KangQiao and ZhangJiang areas are asking higher rents.

The only way to find a home is to get off your ASS and wear out some shoe leather here in Pudong. There are many appartments/compounds around here you dont even know about, so you might have a lot of Chinese neighbours but they have BMWs.

Don't trust your agent/consultant as they are blood sucking bottom feeding scum, nearly as bad as the SATTV guys you will meet.

The problem is a lot of appartments are built cheaply and waste space as the locals say, a 250sqr meter place may only have 2 bedrooms!!! But think outside the box, rent 2 appartments for 25k and have a wall built across the landing to join the appartments. I have seen this done!!!

But have you considered BUNKBEDS, stick 2 children in 1 bedroom. Only sign a contract for 6mont/1 year and make sure you can give 1 months notice. This gives you plenty of time to find a new place to live and does not tie you into a 2 year contract.

Beware the contracts you are offered as they will try to tie you into a minimum 2 year deal wich max out the agents fees. If you break the contract kiss goodbye to 100,000rmb!!!

Not ALL agents are "blood sucking bottom feeding scum" You cannot generalize this.

It is just as important to choose your agent, as it is to choose your apartment.

The agents fees are NO MORE for a 2 year contract. The fee will be the same 1 year or 2.
No need to take a 2 year contract. You can get a 6 month one or 1 year one.

Someone needs to negotiate some Residual Payments for 2nd and 3rd years of a rental contract. If not for the total stay of the client, milk the cow till they leave China. Whats the point of someone staying in an appartment for multiple years if you are not making any money from them.

juanthedragon wrote:

ladylady wrote:Still Juan - I think your agent sucks and you should call up another one (we used wellwellsh.com) just to take you around and give you some leverage.

Spoke to consultant from wellwellsh and he confirmed that the rental in JinQiao area has gone up after the expo. There are more expats looking to lease and not many houses are available now. Even houses in KangQiao and ZhangJiang areas are asking higher rents.

Yes, supply is low at present but there are some around. We are showing clients villas between 50-57k in the Jinqiao area tomorrow. As always, Tomson Golf is the cheapest villa compound in the area. You will still find some around in your budget in Zhang Jiang and Kanqiao. Agents just generally look at what is in their own database and quote accordingly. Typically they don’t like to co-broke because they loose 30% commission on it.

Send me a mail and I can send you photos of the ones we have. manager@shanghaiprops.com or adriennefarrelly@yahoo.com.au. (we have been having server problems so pls try both)

IMHO leave the kids and wife o/s, rent a top appartment in LuJiaZui with left over for a young 19 y.o hot mistress.

I know it's slightly off topic but the thing that I find insane is that Companies are still sending expats on big packages. How much does it cost per annum to employ some of these people? I've got a mate in Singapore who has been transferred with his wife and 3 kids (all in school). A quick calculation of his complete benefits package and the whole lot is costing his company close to US$750k a year. Does he contribute $750k worth of bottom line profits to his company each year? Doubt it, he's an accountant. Insane.

Why shouldn't someone like Adrienne take advantage of other peoples insanity? I would if I was in this business.

Gay_Chevara wrote:I would love to live on LongDong Ave.

haha

Ages ago in Pudong (funny in itself) there was a road sign "Long Dong Rd to Puxi" now since gone. I guess the city got tired of replacing it every time it was stolen!

crivens200 wrote:I know it's slightly off topic but the thing that I find insane is that Companies are still sending expats on big packages.

According to my husband, it's because you'd have to find five local hires to be able to do what one expat can do, and hire someone to manage them, and they'd still make a hash of it. Direct quote from his GM: "Our expat staff are extremely cost efficient."

hi, how can i get a 50k housing allowance?

This is a informative threat. I will work in Zhang Jiang Hi Tech Park and I am looking for a school and house nearby. I am keen on Regency Park and Seasons' Villa but I am concerned about the overhead power or high tension transmission cable lines nearby. I am worried of the adverse effect of EMI on health especially children.

After househunting a selection of 19 houses we are to decide between Regency Park, or Shama duplex.
Any recommendation based on your experiences? Family of 4, husband will commute to Puxi. Thank you

smokey wrote:IMHO leave the kids and wife o/s, rent a top appartment in LuJiaZui with left over for a young 19 y.o hot mistress.

Yeah seriously... Get real. 50-60K for a villa in Shanghell? Come the F on and get real. Leave the family back home where they are happier anyways and fly back business class every weekend and still have money left over for the mistress...

Do I have to make a power point presentation? Or is this clear enough?

I lease a whole F ing compound with a three story house and shop in Pudong for less then 30K A YEAR !