Salary Expectations - Forum Discussions

[szwliew]

won't say too much...i've been warned already!

Kumlong...you keep saying that if they both have the same ability, they should have the same pay. I agree with you 100%. But the reason expats are brought in is because locals DO NOT have the same ability to perform. You may not agree with this in every case, but somewhere in that company, somebody has decided the expat's extra qualities are necessary.

If the local workers really can do exactly the same job as an expat, the expat wont' be necessary anymore. Until that happens, they are not equal.

[kumlong]

thanks for agreeing. that is all i am trying to say but somehow some other people do believe that remuneration is a function of nationality

[p1atl10]

gwai los

Humorous....Speaking of racist.

You do realize of course that the use of this term used to be extremely demeaning and racist?

[kumlong]

i dont think its racist. gwai = devil and its given when the white conquer china. main purpose was to depict a foreign person. foreign as in a ghost or a devil.

[ShanghaiAdventure]

that is why i tell you in economics terms in the future there will not be a salary premium simply because of your passport.

I would have to disagree with you.... as far as supply and demand go China with 1.2+ billion people is always going to have far more labor then what the market demands keeping the avg. wages low. Yes it will increase but not to the levels of which I think you are thinking (read expat/foreigner pay)

Why expats are generally paid more.... value added. Obviously companies deem it necessary to send foreigners to work in China for a reason. Your multi-national companies have thought this out pretty well..... they aren't going to just send others over here to work for just the hell of it if they can hire a comparable local to do the same job (read quality of work)

[mrpango]

If you paid any foreigners the same wage as the locals, would any even bother coming over?

You talk about economics, yet you still don't get the bigger picture.

How many Chinese in China. Then think about how many foreigners there are.

My view is that eventually the pay scales of expats and locals will even out, as the pay of the locals increases and that of the expats drops. But, the expat pay is going to drop a lot more than the increase in local pay. This is going to happen a lot sooner than we expect.

Hopefully increases in local salaries won't go high enough to the point where competitive edge is lost for having operations in China. I don't really think there are enough expats around to justify a high pay drop.

I get paid more than the locals (but not on any type of package, far from the crazy money a month people make), mainly because I provide a skill set that non of the locals will be able to match (i.e. technical communication skills - in English).

In this case, my pay is related to my passport, and I got the passport from being born abroad, and so I have native English skills. Just what the position was looking for

[ShanghaiAdventure]

i dont think its racist. gwai = devil and its given when the white conquer china. main purpose was to depict a foreign person. foreign as in a ghost or a devil.

rac·ism (rā'sĭz'əm) Pronunciation Key
n.
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

So foreigners are ghosts or devils....... yeah I would have to say that is prejudice based on race.

[CK1]

Ayi (household income = RMB10,000 per month)
Housing mortgage=RMB3,000
Utilities = RMB1,000
Food = RMB1,000
Transport (cycling) with occassional bus (no taxi) - RMB300
Entertainment = RMB500 (usually a family meal outside)
Clothings, groceries and other household items = RMB2,000
(This group of people will invest money on stocks and the remaining will be saved)

You're probably correct, but I just laughed out loud picturing my ayi in a pin-stripe suit on a trading floor shouting 'Buy! Sell!'

[hautumncloud]

The ability to perform also includes the thinking process and attitude of the employee - which is rare to find a Chinese with these good qualities. Those that are good will be grabbed by multinational companies faster than you could blink an eye but again, its rare. The other biggy is open mindedness and trainability - again both tough qualities to find in the local people. Intelligence is not the question. Performing as in doing the actual work physically is not a problem either. Being a team player is a hard idea to get across to the locals.

Until then, China is not forced to take on expats but China know that it needs expats' expertise at the moment. In terms of salary, expats salaries/packages has dropped comparing to say 5-8 years ago but that is because more are willing to come to work here from other countries, NOT beacuse the locals are able to handle the jobs as the number of expats has increased, not decreased. The living conditions have improved drastically for an expat compared to 5 - 8 years ago.

On another note: China is not the only one relying on expats. South East Asia countries benefit from expats knowledge and continue to do so. No company will pay more for an expat if there are locals who can do the job for a fraction of the cost. After all the bottom line - profit - is what it is all about. You won't see many expats (except in very specialized field) in North America, England, or Australia.

[TheDudeAbides]

Foreigners who essentially perform the same work as Chinese are generally rejected their visa application anyway, unless brought over by their company. If the company brings them over then obviously they see a need for them and have to pay them more for the inconvenience. As for foreigners who come here first and try to find a job - if they have some sort of a skill or ability that cannot be found within the local workforce then they are accepted - if not, they aren't. The Chinese government looks after its own, as any smart government should. It's not as though a foreigner can just come here and slot right into any old job next a Chinese and be earning double or triple what they are.

[hautumncloud]

Just to add to my post: quite often, if a multinational company eye a potential local with the basic quality they are looking for, they will invest in training that individual, sometimes even sending them to the HQ overseas, so the mentality rubb off. The thinking is really key and very very hard to change someone's mentality at the adult level.

Passport or not, skin colours or not......its the specific qualities most time accumulated in an environment that promotes problem solving that are lacking here.

[yu888]

i dont think its racist. gwai = devil and its given when the white conquer china. main purpose was to depict a foreign person. foreign as in a ghost or a devil.

Talk about ironicAL! you give the racist rational for the usage of the term and do not admit its a racist term? Come on... certainly puts into perspective a bit how rational and logical your other arguments may be?

Ok that aside, I agree that compensation based on nationality or race is definitely not right, though it happens everywhere in the world in some way shape or form, including the allegedly colourblind US of A. In hiring here, I DO believe that one needs to pay an employee based on their ability to perform and contribute to the company AS WELL AS their needs. If THAT amount is still worthwhile to the company then the compensation is fairly determined by market value.

As for now, if I had to hire for a position between an average University Grad from Fudan in, say business, and an average University Grad from a similar top school in the UK or US, I would base their compensation on their qualifications, experience AND how much I think the are worth to the company, and THEN finalise a number based on what I think we can get them for. While not race or nationality based, there WILL be a difference because their needs are different AND their expectations are different.

[chingiskhan]

Waste of time Mr Pango trying to explain to someone with a tiny brain and very little scope for opening up his mind. Save your energy for the weekend! I'm off to the airport flying back to Shanghai .....

[Stark]

To achieve equality you would have to drastically lower expat wages rather than raise Chinese. If you raise Chinese wages to expat levels (what expats are paid in their home countries) then there is no reason for companies to be here and they will return to where the workers are more efficient and professional.

[me_myself_&_i]

how about the foreigners that do some work that no locals can do for various reasons. like beiing a native english teacher (considering from what i can read sometimes that he or she is white/caucasian etc etc)

or in hospitality industry. like restaurant chefs (italian for italian restaurant or french or german etc etc etc)

also actors or models.

i am sure other professions qualify for it too.

then for sure you have to pay those guys money i would think to make them come to china.

i would think so anyway.................

[yinlin]

Companies brought in expats to add value for whatever reasons (even the reason might be foolish just to show other clients that they are multinational companies with laowais working for them) and those expats contribute something that locals are unable to perform.
And like as you mentioned, sometimes it is about supply and demand, we have to get laowai here as we cannot find the capable candidate to take up the job.
Of course, i need to exclude English teaching in my statement as i heard unverified rumours from my friends that tuition centres pay better to whites even you have equal english ability and experience.

[yinlin]

No offensive, guai lou in cantonese is where it came from our ancient who reckons westerners look like the ghosts (not devil) on TV. I personally don't think this is racist and lots of westerners in hk who understand the word would not think this is racist to them as well. Of course, i would just keep my mouth shut if you think this is a disrespect act. your call

[kumlong]

seriously, yu888, i think if u ask a person from hk if gwai lo is a racist term, i think u would get a definite no.

[underh20]

And the terms "banana" and "northern person" is also not offensive to Chinese.

[yinlin]

You won't see many expats (except in very specialized field) in North America, England, or Australia.

this is how you define expat, dude.
I am damn sure there is more Asian oversea migrants working in Australia and United State than laowais in China.

[yinlin]

As for now, if I had to hire for a position between an average University Grad from Fudan in, say business, and an average University Grad from a similar top school in the UK or US, I would base their compensation on their qualifications, experience AND how much I think the are worth to the company, and THEN finalise a number based on what I think we can get them for. While not race or nationality based, there WILL be a difference because their needs are different AND their expectations are different.

*Applause*

[Oomomo]

When I was working in Hong Kong, my Hong Kong friends would always joke that Filipinos are the largest expat community in Hong Kong.

Just go to HSBC building at Central on Sun, and you will know.

Lol

[kumlong]

banana is definitely not offensive. banana depicts a person who is yellow outside and white inside ie chinese in outlook but non chinese in culture. 'choke sing' would be offensive but then in hk its taken as someone who is a fake westerner. of course you would not hear such words on television as its not proper cantonese. but then you would not hear local slang such as 'kang sei mao' (swallow dead cat) on tv either.

not sure what northern person is ... unless u are talking about northern mushroom. this i think its derogative but then it has to do with an industry of women whom i am not allowed to talk about here!

[Cylon]

The fact is, there is also discrimination among "foreigners". So there is nothing right or wrong in this situation.

[ShanghaiAdventure]

seriously, yu888, i think if u ask a person from hk if gwai lo is a racist term, i think u would get a definite no.

Social acceptance by nationals of a term that is demeaning to foreigners..... yeah thats not racist

[kumlong]

so u would consider gai jin a racist term too? or even lao wai for that matter

[Mon_Mon]

If I am the boss and found my staff member spend all the Friday working day on the net posting in forums rather than working then I would think even 3000 is too much, no matter chinese or 'guai lo'.

[yinlin]

dont go too far from the topic!
you guys are all racist, detest Chinese people, classify other SE asian as half-pat, black as nigles, red neck, F.O.B and too many till i cannot name every of them.
i will hold a shanghairacist.com website soon, waiting for your sign up

[kumlong]

u cannot multi task?

[yinlin]

i will sack my staffs who confront me why i am typing to those whom i might not meet forever in my life no matter he is getting 3000rmb or usd, no matter mon_mon or fri_fri