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Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Just like it says.. a forum for discussion of these things.

Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby d1ck » Wed May 12, 2010 2:01 pm

Doom Day is coming :shock: : Property Tax in Shanghai very soon:

In Chinese: http://house.focus.cn/news/2010-05-12/930596.html

In English (under Google translation) http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... 30596.html

"Regulation of local property market will be the biggest mystery will reveal the Shanghai real estate tax levy"

"Local property market rules regulating the biggest mystery will be revealed today. Shanghai Securities News exclusively learned that Shanghai recently held a district government and relevant departments to participate in the briefing for the leadership, intense discussion of Shanghai property market regulatory rules, including the property tax formula. Rules of the fastest will be released this month, while the Shanghai seeks to retain part of the housing property tax levy will be collected after the introduction of the Rules was officially launched...."

"....If you meet the tax conditions, adjustment shall pay the equivalent of real estate values in 0.8% of property tax. Tax base, rather than to assess the price of property sold. In addition, for rented housing, and paid property taxes on time buyers will no longer be considered double taxation..."

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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby d1ck » Wed May 12, 2010 7:06 pm

Hi Overh20, you math is great ! In fact, median price of Shanghai apt is 2-3m, so tax will be 16-24k/year. Also,current yield from same apt is ~2%. So, yield will be less profitable then bank deposit (2%). In result: panic of property market. Will see.
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby wuyee » Wed May 12, 2010 10:35 pm

how do they decide how much the property is worth? there are many cases of delibrate under reporting of transaction price?

in previous measures, sellers pass the tax to buyers. i wonder if this will occur again.

overh20- 8% doesnt mean a lot but if u have 10-20 properties its really a lot of holding on cost.
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby edbreejen » Wed May 12, 2010 11:29 pm

Not so difficult to estimate the value of properties, there are a few websites (forgot the exact url's and am currently too lazy to search for it) where you key in the name of the compound or address and you get a fairly good estimate of the property value (which is easy here as they mainly look at sqm price, decoration and state of maintenance hardly plays a role here). Gov just copies their database, take this a proxy for the value and state in the property tax regulations that the owner has to prove a lower value (say outside a bandwidth of x%) in case of appeal.

By the way, sources in Chinese say it's not for 1st properties, only for 2nd and more.
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby Shangstar » Wed May 12, 2010 11:48 pm

and inflation has surged in April, central bank already says it will probably raise rates and bank minimum reserves even more.
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby d1ck » Thu May 13, 2010 12:03 pm

Here interesting web about property, check investing rating there:

TOP OF RATING:

http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/investment-rating
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby d1ck » Thu May 13, 2010 12:06 pm

BOTTOM OF LIST:
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby pat_togo » Thu May 13, 2010 1:19 pm

As stingy as Shanghainese are, don't be surprised to find local lanlords try to renegotiate existing contracts to pass this tax to the renters.
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby pat_togo » Thu May 13, 2010 1:22 pm

wuyee wrote:how do they decide how much the property is worth? there are many cases of delibrate under reporting of transaction price?

in previous measures, sellers pass the tax to buyers. i wonder if this will occur again.

overh20- 8% doesnt mean a lot but if u have 10-20 properties its really a lot of holding on cost.


Those with 10-20 properties probably do not have all of them under their personal names, but rather under family members and relatives names. So if the tax applies from the second property they won't probably be affected much.
Even if they had multiple properties under their names they would be "selling" them to relatives soon...
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby d1ck » Thu May 13, 2010 1:25 pm

pat_togo wrote:As stingy as Shanghainese are, don't be surprised to find local lanlords try to renegotiate existing contracts to pass this tax to the renters.


Yes, but renters will refuse .. cos it will be additional 50% for rent fees. Market not ready "TO PAY". So, there will be much more apt on sale.. :roll: - that's i called as a "Doom Day".

pat_togo wrote:Even if they had multiple properties under their names they would be "selling" them to relatives soon...


Even "selling" with lowered price will cost additional 3% registration fees. That sad. :mrgreen:
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby wuyee » Thu May 13, 2010 9:41 pm

wasnt there something that says that u are supposed to list out ur immediate family members when buying an apartment?

sorry over ... i mistype. i meant 0.8%
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby d1ck » Fri May 14, 2010 8:00 am

^Seems to me what Govt yet did not own choice. They have 2 ways to get money: continue sell lands or begin collect taxes from property. Both ways have own props and negs, will see what is preferable (for them). From my point of view: both are bad, but too late to change anything..

PS: See, banks ALREADY seeking money. WHAT NEXT ? And WHEN ?
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby KalanStar » Fri May 14, 2010 8:38 am

Property tax is a good idea as it helps control housing prices, keeping them more stable and less likely to produce a bubble. When there is property tax, the more homes one buys, the more tax one pays. Also, as real-estate value increases, so does the governments income. If the Chinese government had had a property tax in place the past 10 years, they'd be richer (more income) and so wold homeowners (lower purchasing price)!

In my opinion, property taxes should be the only tax legally allowed! No more VAT, GST, sales Tax, income tax, capital gains tax, sir tax, cigarette tax, luxury tax etc. etc.... Just, property tax. It's enough to run any government anywhere!
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby victorinchina » Fri May 14, 2010 8:51 am

^ Could you be a sport and explain that idea to the DK government.

Then we don't have to pay 5 euro for a pack of smokes, 280k euro for a 100k euro car, nearly 2 euro for a liter of petrol, etc etc...
Oh, and plus we don't have to pay 50+% income tax...
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby justinbirm » Fri May 14, 2010 8:53 am

KalanStar wrote:Property tax is a good idea as it helps control housing prices, keeping them more stable and less likely to produce a bubble. When there is property tax, the more homes one buys, the more tax one pays. Also, as real-estate value increases, so does the governments income. If the Chinese government had had a property tax in place the past 10 years, they'd be richer (more income) and so wold homeowners (lower purchasing price)!

In my opinion, property taxes should be the only tax legally allowed! No more VAT, GST, sales Tax, income tax, capital gains tax, sir tax, cigarette tax, luxury tax etc. etc.... Just, property tax. It's enough to run any government anywhere!



gota agree with this.
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby TheChemist1981 » Fri May 14, 2010 9:01 am

Wife and I are looking to buy a house at the end of the year. Hope this policy brings prices back to a more reasonable level. :)
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby d1ck » Fri May 14, 2010 9:02 am

KalanStar wrote:Property tax is a good idea as it helps control housing prices


Kalan, that's seems to be very nice idea, BUT, please recall - just due 2009 banks was lend $585 billions of credits to buyers of homes, so imagine if property prices will fall LOWER the level of 2009 year - all these money will become "bad credit". Next one - see "American bank crisis".
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby justinbirm » Fri May 14, 2010 9:13 am

overh20 wrote:
KalanStar wrote:Property tax is a good idea as it helps control housing prices, keeping them more stable and less likely to produce a bubble. When there is property tax, the more homes one buys, the more tax one pays. Also, as real-estate value increases, so does the governments income. If the Chinese government had had a property tax in place the past 10 years, they'd be richer (more income) and so wold homeowners (lower purchasing price)!

In my opinion, property taxes should be the only tax legally allowed! No more VAT, GST, sales Tax, income tax, capital gains tax, sir tax, cigarette tax, luxury tax etc. etc.... Just, property tax. It's enough to run any government anywhere!


Simplistic.

When property prices fall or even fail to rise enough to offset increasing costs, what will the government live on?


the whole point of the tax is too regulate the prices so you dont get these huge ups and downs therefore crashing the economy
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby btb » Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 am

KalanStar wrote:Property tax is a good idea as it helps control housing prices, keeping them more stable and less likely to produce a bubble. When there is property tax, the more homes one buys, the more tax one pays. Also, as real-estate value increases, so does the governments income. If the Chinese government had had a property tax in place the past 10 years, they'd be richer (more income) and so wold homeowners (lower purchasing price)!

In my opinion, property taxes should be the only tax legally allowed! No more VAT, GST, sales Tax, income tax, capital gains tax, sir tax, cigarette tax, luxury tax etc. etc.... Just, property tax. It's enough to run any government anywhere!


must be interesting concept.
worked nicely in usa and canada on the same path....

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby KalanStar » Fri May 14, 2010 9:28 am

victorinchina wrote:^ Could you be a sport and explain that idea to the DK government.

Then we don't have to pay 5 euro for a pack of smokes, 280k euro for a 100k euro car, nearly 2 euro for a liter of petrol, etc etc...
Oh, and plus we don't have to pay 50+% income tax...


I'm not sure of the tax structure in Denmark, but I can tell you that in Canada and the USA an awful lot of businesses are property tax exempt. In the USA, the biggest real-estate owners, the apartment rental companies are by and large property tax exempt and in Canada many big stores and shopping malls get to build their mega stores without paying any property tax. In these 2 countries, if all property was adequately taxed, other taxes could be done away with! Taxing ones income at 30 - 50% and then taxing all purchases at 15% kills economies! People can't afford to buy anything after awhile. If property taxes matched the increases in values, ie, the tax takes the substantial amount of capital /profit that real-estate value increases provide, it'd be a major money maker. Think of property taxes at 25 - 40% of value and you see how this would work! True, most wouldn't own property at all, but they'd have all their incomes to spend on what ever else they chose!
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby KalanStar » Fri May 14, 2010 9:38 am

overh20 wrote:There's also the issue of different levels of government. Property taxes -- at least in the US -- traditionally go to municipal governments and / or school districts. The federal government and state governments usually get no money from property tax receipts.

The idea of just a universal property tax and eliminating other taxes -- aside from being too simple-minded -- would cause current property tax rates to go up probably to 25% or more. No homeowner will accept that.


Home ownership being a "good" thing is just a myth of the post feudalist age. In reality, as China is now learning, most average people can't afford to own a house. If property taxes were raised to at least 25%, this myth would effectively be destroyed. And as for homeowners accepting it, if you sell them on no income, sales, or other taxes, it is likely that they won't be any poorer. And since when do governments give a damn what the populous thinks in regards to taxes anyway? Income tax was sold to the populous in America as a temporary measure to pay for the Civil War and in Britain, to fight Napoleon. My, those wars must have been bloody expensive! :roll:
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby bleepingbleeper » Fri May 14, 2010 9:46 am

KalanStar wrote:Think of property taxes at 25 - 40% of value and you see how this would work! True, most wouldn't own property at all, but they'd have all their incomes to spend on what ever else they chose!

um...who can afford to pay 25-40% property tax every year? that'd be most people's entire yearly income. everybody would be broke... haha. even small-medium businesses would not be able to support this. and no business would want to own property either. that means no new construction or buildings. you'd have to make all property gov't-owned, which would defeat the purpose of a property tax.
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby victorinchina » Fri May 14, 2010 9:53 am

KalanStar wrote:
victorinchina wrote:^ Could you be a sport and explain that idea to the DK government.

Then we don't have to pay 5 euro for a pack of smokes, 280k euro for a 100k euro car, nearly 2 euro for a liter of petrol, etc etc...
Oh, and plus we don't have to pay 50+% income tax...


I'm not sure of the tax structure in Denmark, but I can tell you that in Canada and the USA an awful lot of businesses are property tax exempt. In the USA, the biggest real-estate owners, the apartment rental companies are by and large property tax exempt and in Canada many big stores and shopping malls get to build their mega stores without paying any property tax. In these 2 countries, if all property was adequately taxed, other taxes could be done away with! Taxing ones income at 30 - 50% and then taxing all purchases at 15% kills economies! People can't afford to buy anything after awhile. If property taxes matched the increases in values, ie, the tax takes the substantial amount of capital /profit that real-estate value increases provide, it'd be a major money maker. Think of property taxes at 25 - 40% of value and you see how this would work! True, most wouldn't own property at all, but they'd have all their incomes to spend on what ever else they chose!


But then again, if they changed all that we might not have the health care system, free schooling, free dental care for kids, wide range of free educations, etc etc as we got.
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby btb » Fri May 14, 2010 10:03 am

overh20 wrote:
btb wrote:
KalanStar wrote:Property tax is a good idea as it helps control housing prices, keeping them more stable and less likely to produce a bubble. When there is property tax, the more homes one buys, the more tax one pays. Also, as real-estate value increases, so does the governments income. If the Chinese government had had a property tax in place the past 10 years, they'd be richer (more income) and so wold homeowners (lower purchasing price)!

In my opinion, property taxes should be the only tax legally allowed! No more VAT, GST, sales Tax, income tax, capital gains tax, sir tax, cigarette tax, luxury tax etc. etc.... Just, property tax. It's enough to run any government anywhere!


must be interesting concept.
worked nicely in usa and canada on the same path....

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:



Are you saying that having only property taxes and no others works in the US?


forgot to add Sarcasm Alert ... :)
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby wuyee » Fri May 14, 2010 1:31 pm

i think a 0.8%-1.5% tax wont really hurt those who buy a property for living. those who buy a few (say 10) should ideally be taxed. if u can have the cash to buy that many, why complain abt the tax?
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby wuyee » Fri May 14, 2010 1:32 pm

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-0 ... ate1-.html
May 13 (Bloomberg) -- Shanghai’s municipal government may levy an annual tax of about 1.5 percent of the value of properties, the Hunan province-based Xiaoxiang Morning Herald newspaper reported today on its website, citing a developer who declined to be identified. The government will make the announcement on May 15, the newspaper said. Several Shanghai-based developers have received “hints” that new policies are poised to be issued to cap prices, and have begun to sell their properties, it said. The Oriental Morning Post said the tax will be around 0.8 percent.

“Shanghai house prices would fall sharply if it was introduced, but I think 0.8 percent is more likely because the government doesn’t want home prices to fall that much,” said Zhang Chifei, a Nanjing-based analyst at Huatai Securities Co. The Shanghai Municipal Housing Support and Building Administration Bureau didn’t answer phone calls seeking comment.

Shanghai would be the first city in China to impose its own property tax to combat speculation in the housing market and control price increases. Real estate prices in 70 Chinese cities rose by a record 12.8 percent in April from a year earlier, the National Bureau of Statistics said on May 11.

Shanghai’s property policy will be more severe than that in Beijing, the Xiaoxiang report said, citing an unnamed developer. Beijing became the first Chinese city to limit residents to purchasing one new home starting this month.

Potential Slump

China has restricted pre-sales by developers, curbed loans for third-home purchases and on May 2 raised banks’ minimum reserve requirements for the third time this year. The government is trying to peel back the effects of a stimulus plan and $1.4 trillion lending binge that revived economic growth while raising the risk of asset bubbles.

The Shanghai government is unlikely to impose an aggressive property tax, said Zuo Hongying, a Shanghai-based analyst at AJ Securities Co. “They may introduce different tax benchmarks for different groups of people,” he said.

Property prices in Shanghai may fall as much as 40 percent if the new tax is imposed, and declines in other cities would follow, Wu Jianxiong, a Shanghai-based analyst at Central China Securities Holdings, said yesterday.

The levy may only be charged on new purchases instead of existing apartments, the Oriental Morning Post reported, citing unidentified sources.

‘Cautious Style’

Shanghai’s housing bureau will meet tomorrow to discuss detailed regulations aimed at curbing speculation in residential property, and new rules may be released within two weeks, China Daily said today, citing Sun Lijian, an adviser to the city’s government.

The government is unlikely to impose a property tax now given its “cautious” style, and such a levy is more likely to be imposed in two or three years’ time, Sun was cited by the English-language daily as saying.

Shanghai’s policies are unlikely to deviate much from regulations announced by the central government over the last month, Sun said.

Beijing will limit new apartment purchases to one per family as part of measures aimed at slowing the rise in housing prices, the Xinhua News Agency reported on April 30.

Sales in Beijing measured by floor area dropped 41 percent in April from a year earlier, the statistics bureau said on its website yesterday. The price of new residential properties rose 21.5 percent from a year earlier and the price of second-hand housing rose 8.4 percent, according to the statement.

China Vanke Co., the nation’s biggest developer by market value, rose 0.4 percent at the 3 p.m. close on the smaller Shenzhen exchange. Poly Real Estate Group Co., the second biggest, added 0.5 percent in Shanghai.

The benchmark Shanghai Composite Index rose 2.1 percent.
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby KalanStar » Fri May 14, 2010 5:31 pm

overh20 wrote:That owning property is a bad thing is only a myth of the financial underachievers, mathenatically challenged and simple-minded.

Returning to feudalism might be a good idea, though. I could use a peon to work like a dog and pay him peanuts. Care to volunteer?


What caused the world financial melt down again??? Oh yes. I remember, something to do with mortgages wasn't it? And a bunch of mathematically challenged financial underachievers selling and possessing them if I'm not mistaken.

Was not private property ownership promoted by the land lords of Europe who sought to break the ancient covenant of serf and lord and kick the peasants from their "private" land in order to make way for profiting from the means of production without responsibility to those who preformed the labour? Feudalism was a 2 way street my friend.
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby Mr Totomolo » Fri May 14, 2010 5:40 pm

bleepingbleeper wrote:um...who can afford to pay 25-40% property tax every year? that'd be most people's entire yearly income. everybody would be broke...


Well, as Over said, it is an utopia...
But not totally.
In fact, each country has very big differences in the tax system and base
Everybody knows that US citizns are taxed on their worldwide income, even when they are expatriates (ok, I know with the 85 K US$ deduction, blah blah).

For french expatriates, we don't have this rule; so for example, since I am registered with the consular affairs in Taipei, I don't pay taxes on my income to the French governement (of course, I pay taxes to taiwan government).

But...on each property I own in France, I pay a tax based on 25% of the estimated rented income of my property, NO MATTER i RENT IT OR LEAVE IT EMPTY....
3 years ago, a group of french friends and myself grilled our senator for overseas french expats, and the reply from french government was that it was a kind of social justice to tax our properties in this way, since we don't pay income taxes to France (btw, we don't pay income taxes, but we don't use and abuse of social benefits like unemployement subsidies and even social security, we have to fork for private insurance ourselves)

In summary, a yearly 25% property tax based on rental value (estimated by the average around your property) exists and is enforced (In France , we go around this by creating SCI (societes civiles immobilieres = property civil companies, which dont make a profit and can deduct maintenance costs, etc...)
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby bleepingbleeper » Fri May 14, 2010 7:02 pm

Mr Totomolo wrote:But...on each property I own in France, I pay a tax based on 25% of the estimated rented income of my property, NO MATTER i RENT IT OR LEAVE IT EMPTY....
3 years ago, a group of french friends and myself grilled our senator for overseas french expats, and the reply from french government was that it was a kind of social justice to tax our properties in this way, since we don't pay income taxes to France (btw, we don't pay income taxes, but we don't use and abuse of social benefits like unemployement subsidies and even social security, we have to fork for private insurance ourselves)

In summary, a yearly 25% property tax based on rental value (estimated by the average around your property) exists and is enforced (In France , we go around this by creating SCI (societes civiles immobilieres = property civil companies, which dont make a profit and can deduct maintenance costs, etc...)

so the 25% tax on rental value - is that only for french expats? if so, then that property would not be your primary residence. yes, it still sucks, say if you wanted to keep your house in france for when you repatriate. but i think that's still a far cry from a 25-40% tax on total property value (including primary residence) as kalanstar proposed.

let's say house rental is 2k/mo *12mos *25% = 6k/yr in tax (sucks, but i bet taiwan income tax vs french income tax more than makes up for this)

let's say house value is 250k * 25% = 62.5k/yr in tax (...wtf!)
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Re: Shanghai Property Tax 0.8%

Postby KalanStar » Fri May 14, 2010 9:53 pm

[quote="bleepingbleeper]let's say house value is 250k * 25% = 62.5k/yr in tax (...wtf!)[/quote]
wtf indeed! When I graduated from university, in the town where I studied, a 40 year old 2 bedroom house was going for about 80k. I came back 3 years later to find the same house going for 250k! The house was surely not worth 80k upon my graduation as it cost less than 20k when it was new. And the vast increase in market value over 3 years is the result of speculation, not real value in the property! If there was a tax system of 25% in place neither the 1st 40 years, and the following 3 years of value increases would not have taken place and it'd probably be worth 40k. 25% of 40k is 10k, much cheaper than it would be to rent the place and therefore quite feesable! Anyway, I first came upon this idea in an economics publication, but I can' remember where.
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