Hi all,

I will be graduating from business school here in New York this May. I am hoping to move to Shanghai this summer, but unfortunately due to the economy I have not been able to find a job in my field (real estate).

Given the debt I have amassed these two years, From the ranges I've seen in job postings, I'm afraid that I won't be able to survive on an English teacher's salary. For those of you in education, could you please tell me the possibility of finding a job teaching something business related in English, and how the pay compares to English teaching salaries? I was thinking maybe like teaching introductory Excel, real estate, or finance, possibly at a business school.

If this avenue is indeed possible, how would you suggest I approach finding such a job? Calling the schools? Sending an email introducing myself and my complicated situation?

Thanks for any help in advance!

A teacher's salary is not bad if you work for the big companies such as EF or Wall Street English. They pay around 14,000 RMB a month. That is as good as salaries get for foreigners who do not speak mandarin. Unless you can secure a job with an expat package while you are still in NYC, I would say you apply at the companies mentioned above. Be ready to work long hours and weekends, that's just the reality of it...

If you are trying to find a job teaching "introductory Excel, real estate, or finance" using English as the language of instruction, I would think you chances of success would be extremely limited in Shanghai. Your best bet would probably be to apply to teach Business English through companies such as the two listed by apl09 above.
By the way, apl09, when you say:

around 14,000 RMB a month. That is as good as salaries get for foreigners who do not speak mandarin

I assume you are meaning as good as it gets for English teaching jobs outside of those for fully qualified teachers in mainstream international schools, rather than as good as it gets for any jobs for foreigners who don't speak Mandarin.

There is a few issues here to consider.

1) You don't have any real working experience, so getting anything else other than an ESL job would be difficult.

2) Because you don't have 2yrs work experience, or even a TEFL (teaching) certificate of some description, you will have trouble getting a proper full-time teaching job - as you don't qualify for a proper working permit in China. I'm not even sure if places like EF, WallSt would take on full-time teachers without a teaching certificate, or a lot of useful experience. The better paying schools certainly do not - there will always be cheaper options that do. But you "can't survive" on this apparently.

3) While there are ways around the work permit situation (F-visa, work part-time), you won't be able to earn too much on this, unless you have extensive work experience. I know a few people that do this (earn 250/hr for 20+hrs per week in several part-time roles) - but its only their 10-20yrs of work experience that allows them to get plenty of teaching work like this.

4) You can come here, work part-time in a few jobs, earning 150-200rmb/hr (maximum, since no work experience) and while you are here, you can spend a lot of time picking up various jobs. Its easier to find more work when you are here. This is your best option.

5) There are many foreign university degree programs (undergrad and postgrad) that operate in the main cities, and they all use foreign teachers. Most of them pay 200-400rmb/hr on a part-time contract basis (for each semester), but you can't get this unless you at least have a few years work experience.


Sorry to be a bit blunt, but this is the reality of the situation. Good luck.

(F-visa, work part-time).

Just wanted to point out that this is illegal, you most likely won't get caught as MANY are doing just this. Just something to weigh in to your pros and cons though.

apl09 wrote:A teacher's salary is not bad if you work for the big companies such as EF or Wall Street English. They pay around 14,000 RMB a month. That is as good as salaries get for foreigners who do not speak mandarin. Unless you can secure a job with an expat package while you are still in NYC, I would say you apply at the companies mentioned above. Be ready to work long hours and weekends, that's just the reality of it...

It hurts just to say it, but I owe over $100k USD in student loans, equaling monthly payments of aout 9,000 RMB. I think surviving on 5,000 RMB a month would be tough for me.

I do speak Mandarin, albeit not fluently. On a level 1-10 I would say I'm about a 5. I can carry on a conversation, but I'm far from the point where I can conduct business in Mandarin.

BTW I'm an ABC; does this effect my desirability as an English teacher?

It hurts just to say it, but I owe over $100k USD in student loans

Was what they teached you worth it ?

bigroh73 wrote:There is a few issues here to consider.

1) You don't have any real working experience, so getting anything else other than an ESL job would be difficult.

2) Because you don't have 2yrs work experience, or even a TEFL (teaching) certificate of some description, you will have trouble getting a proper full-time teaching job - as you don't qualify for a proper working permit in China. I'm not even sure if places like EF, WallSt would take on full-time teachers without a teaching certificate, or a lot of useful experience. The better paying schools certainly do not - there will always be cheaper options that do. But you "can't survive" on this apparently.

3) While there are ways around the work permit situation (F-visa, work part-time), you won't be able to earn too much on this, unless you have extensive work experience. I know a few people that do this (earn 250/hr for 20+hrs per week in several part-time roles) - but its only their 10-20yrs of work experience that allows them to get plenty of teaching work like this.

4) You can come here, work part-time in a few jobs, earning 150-200rmb/hr (maximum, since no work experience) and while you are here, you can spend a lot of time picking up various jobs. Its easier to find more work when you are here. This is your best option.

5) There are many foreign university degree programs (undergrad and postgrad) that operate in the main cities, and they all use foreign teachers. Most of them pay 200-400rmb/hr on a part-time contract basis (for each semester), but you can't get this unless you at least have a few years work experience.


Sorry to be a bit blunt, but this is the reality of the situation. Good luck.

I have about 2 years of work experience in real estate. Unfortunately due to the economy, the bar has been set much higher for any of the positions that I would be suitable for. How does that change things?

Reggin wrote:

It hurts just to say it, but I owe over $100k USD in student loans

Was what they teached you worth it ?

I certainly hope so!! This is the standard for graduating from a good MBA program. Whether or not it was worth it is hard to say at this point, given we're in the worst economy in like 50 years.

This is the standard for graduating from a good MBA program. Whether or not it was worth it is hard to say at this point, given we're in the worst economy in like 50 years.

Let me rephrase it: what you know now comparing what you could know if you "just" bought books and browsed internet and learned on your own - will it EVER make you money back ? And I am not talking you will be hired for some practically useless piece of paper (called degree). But what you perosnally feel, say if you were a businessman, the school gave you was worth it or not.

Let me rephrase it: what you know now comparing what you could know if you "just" bought books and browsed internet and learned on your own - will it EVER make you money back ? And I am not talking you will be hired for some practically useless piece of paper (called degree). But what you perosnally feel, say if you were a businessman, the school gave you was worth it or not.

Saying whether or not a school is worth it simply because you can learn things on your own, pretty much undermines the entire education system in place today. I suppose we shouldn't send our children to elementary school because they can watch Sesame Street too? We live in an information age where you could learn how to build a spaceship if you googled it enough and watched some youtube. So yes, I could have probably learned most of what I learned in school on my own.

However, what I was really paying for was having the prestige of graduating from an ivy league institution and access to the alumni network. This is something that simply can't be had unless you were to attend. Alumni I have met have been very helpful to me, continue to be, and if things were better several probably would have been able to offer me jobs.

Back in 2007, with the information I had available at the time in regards to placement statistics, median placement salaries, economic conditions, etc, yes it would have been worth it. Nobody could have foreseen how far-reaching the economic crisis would be and the effects it has had on the world economy. Of course given the fact that I have yet to find a job I'm a bit pessimistic and angry that I am now riddled with this debt load, but one has to stay positive.

Nevertheless, I do feel that I have the tools necessary to do what I was hoping to do going into the program.[quote]

^Hmm, OK
Employee forever
Good luck

I would like to see you start a private equity fund without years of experience, a proven track record or a top degree

anen,
Sorry to be cruel.
The reality is that you have very few marketable skills in Shanghai.

If a school was indeed looking for a "Business Class taught in English"...they could hire a pretty good percentage of the 1.2 million Chinese graduating this year....Most of whom speak English comparably to what your Mandarin level is.

English...Another tough reality is that the Chinese want to learn English from a "laowai"...not a "banana".
(sorry for the racist and stereotypical language. But that is the truth here.)
Even an unqualified white person will get more preference as a hire than an ABC that speaks a level of Mandarin.

And just for a logical argument...
How many US schools would hire a Chinese National with zero experience to teach a "Business Course" at a US University if their English was a 5 out of 10?

I think you may need to re-think your approach.

Good Luck.
(truly)

I don't think you will find any opportunities here, it is as bigroh and p1atl10 has said.

"Nobody could have foreseen how far-reaching the economic crisis would be and the effects it has had on the world economy." That's definitely not true, Roubini.

Anyways, as people have said it'll be harder to find a teaching job as an ABC but people do do it. You might have some better luck teach prep course material since it sounds like you're graduating from Columbia. Or you can look for corporate trainer positions. Have you thought about going to HK instead? I hear some people commute from Shenzhen because of the lower cost of living. I'm sure you know it's hard to find one of those high-paying jobs in Shanghai w/o strong Chinese skills. The same can be said about HK, but it's to a lesser degree and there are just more jobs available out there.

anen wrote:BTW I'm an ABC; does this effect my desirability as an English teacher?

yes, no one will hire your ass. on the off chance u luck out and get hired, your salary will be pitiful compared to your white counterparts.

sad, but true.

Reggin wrote:^Hmm, OK
Employee forever
Good luck

an ivy league education and/or an mba are extremely overrated credentials.

I would not recommend coming here, unless you can bring in some value. Work experience counts. What's your edge?

There are simply too many MBAs around.

I have to agree with the above posts about you being an ABC. I'm Eurasian and some places have turned me down because of the "shape" of my eyes. I've been told I don't look white enough. Whatever.

Well the world is changing, back around 60-70's you didnt really need a degree to get into a job, once u graduated your offered a job.. Now a degree is virtually required as a minimum to get in. Now im thinking about my masters in a few years time, just to be competitive.

Yes, dont expect to work abroard with little to nill experience and expect to recieve decent pay.

There are a few real estate jobs around. Look on enjoyclassifieds.com.

I have been trying to find a job teaching something other than English- but unless you're actually a qualified teacher with international teaching qualifications (ie post-grad teaching diploma, not TEFL), opportunities are limited. There are a few companies teaching kids various things in English, but obviously not business! You could teach business English- but what other posters have already said about work permits is quite true. There's quite a bit of competition for teaching jobs at the moment, and wages are not great.

Having said that, 5000RMB is plenty to live on out here. You can rent somewhere half decent on your own for less than 3000, or share for under 2000, and life's pretty cheap. Good luck getting 14000RMB though, most places are hiring part-timers right now so expect more like 8000.

Well, the good news is that since you have 2yrs of work experience, you would actually "legally" qualify for official work permit/resident permit, provided you have a proper full-time job.

The bad news, in terms of teaching, is that as an ABC - you are less desirable. Like some others have suggested, people in PRC want to be taught English by a round-eye, white-face, etc. Its terrible, I agree - but thats the reality of it.

The other part of that is, even though you are a foreigner, as an ABC, the chances of getting a "foreigner" salary, starting at anything above 10,000rmb/mth, is actually quite limited. Most companies will treat you as a local.

You can get a job here, and you probably could find a teaching job eventually......but it won't be easy. Sorry that most people here have given you bad news, but its better for you to realise this now than to come here with high hopes and get depressed and suicidal.

Good luck with it all.

p1atl10 wrote:If a school was indeed looking for a "Business Class taught in English"...they could hire a pretty good percentage of the 1.2 million Chinese graduating this year....Most of whom speak English comparably to what your Mandarin level is.

Which means about 10 words but not all in the same sentence?

Why come to SH without an expat package from a forntune 500 company? If I were in your situation, I would be waiting tables or learn to be a bartender in USA. I think you make more money.

Having grown up in NYC, I despise living in the suburbs. Given my debt load, if I want to stay here in NYC and unless I get a six figure job it looks like I'm going to have to live with my parents.

I want to come to Shanghai simply because I like living there. I interned there this past summer, and realized I felt more at home culturally there than back in the good 'ol USA. I'm sure not everyone on this board is in Shanghai because they were forced to move there?

rxg wrote:Why come to SH without an expat package from a forntune 500 company? If I were in your situation, I would be waiting tables or learn to be a bartender in USA. I think you make more money.

I looked at the real estate jobs on enjoyclassifieds like you suggested and they're all for real estate agents, something I was not looking to do.

I'm looking more along the lines of working for a developer or private equity fund. For this kind of work, it's unlikely I will find it by applying online somewhere. I've mostly been concentrating on looking through alumni contacts. While some have been very helpful, and some would have hired me say 2 years ago, I'm simply the victim of a bad economy.

lyonsandtigers wrote:There are a few real estate jobs around. Look on enjoyclassifieds.com.

I have been trying to find a job teaching something other than English- but unless you're actually a qualified teacher with international teaching qualifications (ie post-grad teaching diploma, not TEFL), opportunities are limited. There are a few companies teaching kids various things in English, but obviously not business! You could teach business English- but what other posters have already said about work permits is quite true. There's quite a bit of competition for teaching jobs at the moment, and wages are not great.

Having said that, 5000RMB is plenty to live on out here. You can rent somewhere half decent on your own for less than 3000, or share for under 2000, and life's pretty cheap. Good luck getting 14000RMB though, most places are hiring part-timers right now so expect more like 8000.

⋯⋯ and a victim of American culture where we feel we are entitled to more just because we got more back in the states. The sad reality is as P1atl10 says, your current offering doesn't meet the requirements for a job that pays enough for you to live and payoff your loan on. Swallow your pride and dig in for the duration of the recession. AND look for jobs taht will pay something rather than nothing. Good luck.

If you want to make a go of it, you can get a TEFL cert easy enough. If graduating a business school means you have an MBA or some kind of Masters.. that is in your favor. That you can speak some Chinese is start that you can build quickly on.

The best approach would be to come, plan on not making too much at the start. You can live really cheap here. Network a lot. Make connections and overtime, you will find a niche. Maybe in teaching, maybe in business, may be an entrpreneur and fill a need ( still lots of possibilities for someone to something particularly well here ) . It just won't be easy. And with lowering expectations to do what it takes.. you will be undoubtedly going with a trend of everyone else graduating in the US.

Michael, thanks for the advice. I think the tone of this thread had been going in a nasty direction before your reply.

It seems people have misinterpreted me and I feel like many think I'm acting very "entitled". This is certainly not the case, I don't come from a very wealthy background and any comments regarding my education have been in my own defense to some of the replies I've gotten.

I am fully aware of the difficult road ahead of me and have lowered my expectations significantly. Given that I can either stay here in ny and work a crappy job, or move to shanghai and do something like teach english and learn Mandarin at the same time, I believe the latter option is more useful. I have been to China 3 times in the last 2 years and have spent a lot of time cultivating a network and will continue to do so.

I guess we'll see how things play out.