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The Real Estate bubble ... once again

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The Real Estate bubble ... once again

Postby foreverinchina » Sat May 07, 2011 2:17 pm

For those, still claiming that there is a bubble coming on:



Shaun Rein wrote: No Need to Fear a Property Bubble in China:

Published: Tuesday, 3 May 2011 | 1:56 AM ET

By: Shaun Rein, CNBC Contributor Founder & Managing Director, China Market Research Group


"Hear that sound?" said Andy Xie while cupping his ear. "That’s the sound of China's real estate bubble bursting.”

Xie, a former Morgan Stanley star economist and one of the more vocal China bears, was telling me that Armageddon had arrived. Housing prices were going to drop 50 percent, maybe even 90 percent. Xie and I were debating on CNBC last September in a China "Bull vs. Bear" showdown hosted by Bernie Lo. You can see the three segments here: Bull vs Bear: China property debate 1 / Will China's property bubble burst? / China's growth story

Xie dismissed my argument that moves to limit leverage – home buyers needed to put down 30 percent for their first home, 50 percent for their 2nd – made it unlikely that prices were going to drop anytime soon. He pointed to vacant units as proof that a hard landing was imminent for China, and that it would come from its real estate sector.

What has happened in the 8 months since the debate? Housing prices have risen 30 percent while sales volumes have dropped 70 percent. In other words, people buying homes can afford them. There is no panic selling like in the US or Dubai because rules in place for years have prevented the kind of speculation that was rampant in America, where people bought multiple homes with zero down.

Restrictions have actually gotten stricter and have kept buyers on the sidelines. In Shanghai, third home purchases are no longer allowed, and non-Beijing residents cannot easily buy homes in the capital now. There are reports of an annual property tax being implemented throughout the country.

Even if prices drop 20 percent (as they might) that won't cause the panic that hit the U.S. because mortgages won’t be underwater. Loans were not sliced up and packaged to be sold off as CDOs in a massive exercise in leveraging.

During our debate and in subsequent media appearances, Xie surprisingly made the mistake of equating empty units with a bubble. Instead, empty units indicate a misallocation of resources, not a bubble. There are far too many empty units being held by wealthy folks as investments while far too many live in abominable housing conditions.

The lack of affordable housing could cause social instability. Even the 10 million affordable units the government has pledged that will hit the market this year are not enough, as incomes for the majority are not rising as fast as the cost of decent homes. As the country urbanizes, the demand for housing will continue to spike.

Moreover, on the commercial side, there have been too many poorly conceived retail centers. Too many developers don't seem to understand the market can only sustain so many luxury complexes housing Louis Vuitton and Gucci boutiques. Expect to see more wasteful commercial projects launched as more developers switch from residential to commercial because of laxer controls in that area. This is an area where the government will need to step in to absorb excess liquidity.

Still, even a steep drop in commercial is not going to seriously threaten China’s overall economy; analysts estimate that commercial accounts for just 20 percent of total real estate construction there. And the government can force state-owned banks to roll over loans rather than answer to quarterly calls and mark to market accounting like Citigroup and Bank of America have to.

In the short term, inflation is a far larger threat to China’s overall economy than the risk of a hard landing in real estate. Prices on food products like eggs and milk have risen 10 percent over the last few months. In response, the government has increased produce stocks, implemented price controls and pushed consumer product companies like Unilever and P&G not to raise prices.

Last week truckers in Shanghai shut down ports for three days as they protested soaring oil prices. Low-income families and retirees have been hoarding out of fear of rising prices.

Price caps are not an effective long-term strategy, however, as we saw during the Soviet era. To stave of inflation, the government needs to move less through administrative means like price controls and more towards currency reform. Although it will be painful in the short term, the yuan needs to appreciate 3-5 percent in a one-off event to offset rising commodity prices.

Doing so might cause some pain ahead, notably for low-end manufacturers, but it must be done for the broader economy. The reality is that inflation is here to stay. This is due mainly to two main reasons: The first is rising labor costs as the government increases the minimum wage to push a shift away from exports to consumption. The second is global investors’ dislike of US Federal Reserve Chief Ben Bernanke’s monetary policies which are causing them to abandon the US dollar for commodities like oil and gold.

China is not immune from a hard landing, but if one comes it won’t be because of a supposed housing bubble, as economists like Xie have argued. Inflation imported from the US is the bigger danger, and China will need to adjust its currency to deal with it.

Shaun Rein is the founder and managing director of the China Market Research Group a strategic market intelligence firm, and is based in Shanghai.
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Re: The Real Estate bubble ... once again

Postby Russian.Bear » Sat May 07, 2011 2:54 pm

All that i can see now - Realtors gets a little nervous and pessimistic. Rent cheap - loan expensive.
Without Govt promotion and bank's support - the deal is becomes smell as dog's piss in the elevator.
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Re: The Real Estate bubble ... once again

Postby superkim » Sat May 07, 2011 3:13 pm

Advise from a simple man: When villas start to look like this in a country:

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LOOK OUT!
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Re: The Real Estate bubble ... once again

Postby palominocn » Sat May 07, 2011 5:03 pm

i guess the article's name, No Need to Fear a Property Bubble in China, should be changed as "inflation is more fearful than a property bubble.''
i just read an opinion, china's m1's gain mainly comes from the foreign exchange, because the central government print the RMB to buy the foreign exchange. the more foreign exchange reserve, the more RMB in the market. m2's gain mainly comes from the real estate price hike. china m2 increase at a rate of 20%, while china's gdp+cpi=12%, so where does the remaining 8% percent come from? they come from the increase of real estate value, and mortgage supports the increase of the m2.
what are the root reason of china's inflation? 1.excessive liquidity, or m2 increase at a rate faster than gdp 2. staple commodities price hike in international market.
so the inflation and real estate bubble are actually correlated.
to keep inflation, the government need to control the excessive liquidity, and the government can not depreciate the staple commodities price, which is controled by wall street. the central bank has increased deposit reserve ratio to 21%, so the money in the market should derease greatly. but reality is different. because many hot money(mainly QE money?)flow into china. for example, china's earned a trade deficit in the first quarter, but the foreign exchange reserve still increased greatly, which obviously means hot money flowing into china. all these explain that chinese central bank prefer the deposit reserve ratio to control the inflation rather than the interest rate.
when will the real estate bubble burst? the time when hot money flow out of china or reach a balance point. when hot money flow out? maybe it's right now. dollar has appreciated, nearly no room for china to appreciat, because 1 dollar at least equal 6.5 yuan in actual value and the trade deficit maybe has emerged in china.
so andi xie may be right this time that he has heard the real estate bubble burst, though he has been wrong for many times.
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Re: The Real Estate bubble ... once again

Postby btb » Sat May 07, 2011 5:51 pm

palominocn wrote:i guess the article's name, No Need to Fear a Property Bubble in China, should be changed as "inflation is more fearful than a property bubble.''


China's government said it fined consumer products maker Unilever for disrupting efforts to cool surging inflation by talking to Chinese media about expected price hikes for soap and triggering a buying rush.

The British-Dutch company was fined the equivalent of $308,000 for "spreading information about price rises and disrupting market pricing order," the Cabinet's planning agency said Friday.

Beijing has told companies to hold down price increases to help cool inflation that spiked to a 32-month high of 5.4 per cent in March. The communist government has declared taming inflation its priority and has raised interest four times since October and imposed lending and investment curbs.

Unilever is accused of violating orders to makers of noodles, liquor and hygiene products such as soap to avoid talking publicly about prices, according to the statement by the National Development and Reform Commission.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/offbeat/story/20 ... -fine.html


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: The Real Estate bubble ... once again

Postby jtchinese » Sat May 07, 2011 7:25 pm

How shameless they are! They have raised the gasoline price to protect the profits of SOE and then punished the company which raises the price of soap, who is really disrupting the market pricing order?
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Re: The Real Estate bubble ... once again

Postby Russian.Bear » Sat May 07, 2011 7:35 pm

Palo, oil price fell down for $10/barrel. What do you think,

HOW SOON chinese drivers may enjoy by this 10% discount ...

;-)
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Re: The Real Estate bubble ... once again

Postby KopyKatKiller » Sat May 07, 2011 9:23 pm

Misleading headline: No need to fear bla bla bla, when within the article we find:
The lack of affordable housing could cause social instability. Even the 10 million affordable units the government has pledged that will hit the market this year are not enough, as incomes for the majority are not rising as fast as the cost of decent homes. As the country urbanizes, the demand for housing will continue to spike.

Moreover, on the commercial side, there have been too many poorly conceived retail centers. Too many developers don't seem to understand the market can only sustain so many luxury complexes housing Louis Vuitton and Gucci boutiques. Expect to see more wasteful commercial projects launched as more developers switch from residential to commercial because of laxer controls in that area.
Yeah, everything is just peachy keen, well besides the social unrest that the bubble is causing and idiocy of continued commercial development that is... I wonder how much a home will be worth when the revolution starts???
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Re: The Real Estate bubble ... once again

Postby palominocn » Sun May 08, 2011 12:30 pm

Russian.Bear wrote:Palo, oil price fell down for $10/barrel. What do you think,

HOW SOON chinese drivers may enjoy by this 10% discount ...

;-)

22 days :lol:
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Re: The Real Estate bubble ... once again

Postby Russian.Bear » Sun May 08, 2011 12:34 pm

Palo, Chinese Monopolies NEVER lowered prices for anything. Never. Please let me know if i'm wrong.
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Re: The Real Estate bubble ... once again

Postby rickettyrabbit » Sun May 08, 2011 10:47 pm

palominocn wrote:so andi xie may be right this time that he has heard the real estate bubble burst, though he has been wrong for many times.


He's not wrong until the bubble passes. Nobody can successfully call the time a bubble will burst based on economic theory. Bubbles are caused by market psychology. They can be measured by market fundamentals (real estate prices exceed rational investment returns and demand for housing as opposed to speculative investments). But the time when a bubble will burst isn't measured by economic fundamentals.

A bubble is like a game of economic "chicken". Speculators buy real estate, knowing prices exceed rational investment criteria, but believing there will be "greater fools" to buy it from them when they want to sell, and at a profitable price.

Who will be first to "chicken out" of the market? It's a case of greed vs. prudence. But when the greed turns to fear, watch out! Down it comes!

Nobody can predict the timing with accuracy other than by luck.

Don't call Xie wrong on this until the bubble has subsided rather than burst.

Those who expect the Chinese bubble to burst in the same way the US housing crisis started haven't done their homework. There isn't a consumer debt problem yet in China. But there's a bank debt problem. The likely trigger for a rapid decline in Chinese house prices is bank failures or state action to prevent bank failures, not Chinese dumping homes because the value has erased all their equity.

China's high deposit requirements make a consumer driven panic less likely than in the US. But the instability of China's banks make it likely China will have to do something to shore them up. It will require confiscation of wealth, whether through the current scheme (keeping deposit interest rates well below the real rate of inflation for an extended period), or through other schemes used by China's banks in the past (nationalization of deposits, or forced conversion of deposits to non-tradeable shares or non-cashable bonds). Or perhaps the government will start taxing homes when it gets desperate?

I think the only reason the government has allowed this bubble to develop is the involvement of par-T insiders in SOEs and real estate companies. These insiders didn't do what was best for MOST Chinese (i.e., keeping housing prices affordable, and encouraging the growth in supply of homes that are affordable by a much larger slice of the Chinese population). This looks to me like a problem created largely by insider and speculator greed. That will have to be solved before the housing problem will be solved, and the unwillingness of par-T insiders to step on their own toes will also have to be solved.

Depending on what action is taken, it could spark an asset value deflation. Remember that the current price of most homes in Shanghai is far, far beyond what most Shanghainese can afford to pay. If all the empty homes were being rented out, I wouldn't have any concern that the housing market was overpriced. But we all know that isn't the case.

For now, many multiple home-owners seem to be satisfied to let their money sit in empty and unfinished apartments that aren't producing any income. Their only hope of a gain is an increase in price. Who will pay a higher price now? Only a speculator. Hope springs eternal in the human breast . . . or should I say greed?

This isn't over yet.
Last edited by rickettyrabbit on Sun May 08, 2011 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Real Estate bubble ... once again

Postby Mr Totomolo » Mon May 09, 2011 8:06 am

rickettyrabbit wrote:
A bubble is like a game of economic "chicken". Speculators buy real estate, knowing prices exceed rational investment criteria, but believing there will be "greater fools" to buy it from them when they want to sell, and at a profitable price.

Who will be first to "chicken out" of the market? It's a case of greed vs. prudence. But when the greed turns to fear, watch out! Down it comes!
..................

For now, many multiple home-owners seem to be satisfied to let their money sit in empty and unfinished apartments that aren't producing any income. Their only hope of a gain is an increase in price. Who will pay a higher price now? Only a speculator. Hope springs eternal in the human breast . . . or should I say greed?

This isn't over yet.



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Re: The Real Estate bubble ... once again

Postby Russian.Bear » Mon May 09, 2011 8:46 am

^Current owners of the Bottle(aka property in China) yet not realized that Devil (aka Govt)

fully controlling the Bottle's Magic (aka profit). Phrase from "Lock Stock Two Smockig Barrels":

- Barry the Baptist: "When you dance with the devil, you wait for the song to stop". :?

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Re: The Real Estate bubble ... once again

Postby KopyKatKiller » Mon May 09, 2011 9:52 am

I think one thing that might fill the bubble with value would be if developers were required to finish building the apartments instead of leaving them as empty concrete shells. One of the reasons, i believe, that housing construction is so fast here is that they don't finish the buildings. The big work, like building walls etc. are actually quicker than installing flooring etc. That's why a building built here remains under construction for years to come as new buyers set about drilling and banging for months to complete the project in their little piece of the concrete cake. Making a law that buildings must be completed in "move in" condition before they can be sold would put the brakes on development and add real value to the bubble. Not to mention, it would make the living experience after one moves in a helluvalot nicer not having to listen to construction noise for years to come!

Move in condition???
320x240b.jpg
320x240.jpg


This is how an apartment/condo should look when it's sold (for any Chinese reading this thread).
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Re: The Real Estate bubble ... once again

Postby Mr Totomolo » Mon May 09, 2011 10:24 am

KopyKatKiller wrote:I think one thing that might fill the bubble with value would be if developers were required to finish building the apartments instead of leaving them as empty concrete shells. One of the reasons, i believe, that housing construction is so fast here is that they don't finish the buildings. The big work, like building walls etc. are actually quicker than installing flooring etc. That's why a building built here remains under construction for years to come as new buyers set about drilling and banging for months to complete the project in their little piece of the concrete cake. Making a law that buildings must be completed in "move in" condition before they can be sold would put the brakes on development and add real value to the bubble. Not to mention, it would make the living experience after one moves in a helluvalot nicer not having to listen to construction noise for years to come!

Move in condition???
320x240b.jpg
320x240.jpg


This is how an apartment/condo should look when it's sold (for any Chinese reading this thread).
Image



On your 2 first pics, the buyer is still lucky: there are doors and windows.... !!

Early April, I visited few places in Mangshi, deep south Yunnan near the Burma border;

one apartment was,... how to express this... once you passed the entrance door, it was like a concrete CAVE: 190 sqmt of dark space, without windows, no doors, the concrete floor uneven to the point that there were 15 cm deep holes, 2 bits of plastic tubes for the drain coming out of the ground in kitchen and bathrooms, of course, no toilet seat, no bath, no basic, no sink, NOTHING.... and the real estate agent proudly touting this "extremely fine piece of real estate"...
I could not dream to even invent this kind of joke :wink:
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Re: The Real Estate bubble ... once again

Postby Gay_Chevara » Mon May 09, 2011 10:28 am

Poor Chinese.....

Suckered into thinking that this is on a par with western world living.

Overpriced houses at substandard quality.

Poor bastards.....
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