Hi there,
I'm moving soon with my family to Shanghai and will be hitting the pavement lots I think in finding an apartment, if anyone has any tips at all in what to look for or avoid or ask for I'd REALLY appreciate it!
Can you negotiate your monthly rental amount with a landlord?
Thank you soooo much! Siobhan

Hey mate,

I would strongly suggest having a Chinese friend (someone you can trust) help you here. You will get royally screwed otherwise. Make sure you see the documentation identifying that the property is indeed owned by your landlord (also make sure you see your landlord's face card). Photocopy everything. If your landlord won't let you photocopy, tell him to go f*ck himself and definitely don't pay any money without these documents (no matter how much he whines or how many arguments he makes followed by 'dui ba'). If anything sounds remotely fishy, call the police and play the 'I'm a poor foreigner' card.

I suggest you search the forum for other threads as this topic has been talked to death many times over already.

Good luck.

PM Adrienne or Monalisalee

Guru Pitka wrote: If your landlord won't let you photocopy, tell him to go f*ck himself and definitely don't pay any money without these documents (no matter how much he whines or how many arguments he makes followed by 'dui ba'). If anything sounds remotely fishy, call the police and play the 'I'm a poor foreigner' card.

Golly gosh Guru Pitka, did you have a rough time with a landlord or something? I have never once had a landlord refuse to give a copy of their ID. Pretty standard practice. Maybe we deal with a better level of landlord. Not sure.

victorinchina wrote:PM Adrienne or Monalisalee

Victorinchina. Many thanks matey. We have offered assistance to the OP but it seems they want to go it alone. Personally I wouldn't recommend going alone to a new arrival as the whole process can be fraught with difficulties. If you can not read a Chinese lease you are going to be stuck. You could get a colleague to help but not sure how involved they will want to get.

Given we provide a FREE service I can't quite understand people wanting to take such a huge risk. Ongoing after service, assistance with any issues and with check outs are some of the benefits of using an agent.

Can I suggest to the OP to have a look at our Advice on Leasing to get some tips if you want to go it alone.

Adrienne Farrelly
Shanghai Properties "Expat agents speak your language"
http://www.shanghaiprops.com

Adrienne wrote:

Guru Pitka wrote: If your landlord won't let you photocopy, tell him to go f*ck himself and definitely don't pay any money without these documents (no matter how much he whines or how many arguments he makes followed by 'dui ba'). If anything sounds remotely fishy, call the police and play the 'I'm a poor foreigner' card.

Golly gosh Guru Pitka, did you have a rough time with a landlord or something? I have never once had a landlord refuse to give a copy of their ID. Pretty standard practice. Maybe we deal with a better level of landlord. Not sure.

victorinchina wrote:PM Adrienne or Monalisalee

Victorinchina. Many thanks matey. We have offered assistance to the OP but it seems they want to go it alone. Personally I wouldn't recommend going alone to a new arrival as the whole process can be fraught with difficulties. If you can not read a Chinese lease you are going to be stuck. You could get a colleague to help but not sure how involved they will want to get.

Given we provide a FREE service I can't quite understand people wanting to take such a huge risk. Ongoing after service, assistance with any issues and with check outs are some of the benefits of using an agent.

Can I suggest to the OP to have a look at our Advice on Leasing to get some tips if you want to go it alone.

Adrienne Farrelly
Shanghai Properties "Expat agents speak your language"
http://www.shanghaiprops.com

The landlord for the place I'm in now flat out refused to provide a photocopy of their face card as well as the relevant documentation (this became apparent AFTER I had made the initial payment, unfortunately). Then he wanted me to pay cash for the photocopy. The police got involved, etc. I got the copies eventually, but I'm sure you can imagine the icy tenant-landlord relationship we have now. (Toilet breaks down, he waits days instead of getting a guy to come fix it. I get a guy myself, landlord refuses to reimburse me for the repairs, etc.) Anyways, I only share my experience here so that others can better prepare themselves.

Can I ask Guru if you, as the OP wants to do, rented without using an agent? I agree with Adrienne (and she's not my agent) on the importance of not "going it alone". But not just any agent, someone recommended by someone you can trust.

Frankly, "going it alone" means you deserve what you will get.......
and that is plenty.

I can understand why people who are new to Shanghai would want to go it alone. Back home I would never use an agent. But this is not back home.

Well, this place is unique and has it's own problems, and the Real Estate business is very young and still formulating.

A good agent will save more than their commission, as well as avoiding that huge mine field out there.

^Very true. I had an agent when I first came to Shanghai. At the time, I thought he was ripping me off for asking 35% (is that still the going rate?). Anyway, never had a problem with my landlord despite their being Shanghainese (looking back, I'm sure the lack of problems was due to my agent). My current situation is so screwed up because I had a business 'friend' of sorts who initially helped, but then was too busy to join us when it came time to pay and sign leases. So I was left dealing with a crooked real estate company (can I post their name here? I would love too...) and an even more crooked landlord (who turned out not to be the actual landlord, just a friend of the real landlord with the same last name). My business friend (who is Shanghainese) came back after I was neck-deep in disputes and helped with the police, etc (thank God).

@ Guru: Just to put some perspective on this subject, from what I have seen.
In the country where I come from, although is a very young country, the Real Estate industry, including both house sales and rental sales, is closev to 100 years old. There is a real estate institute, Govt. backed, and with a Strict set of rules, and etiquette. Any agent is expected to be licensed, thereby automatically getting training in those rules. Any agent breaking the rules can lose their license, and therefore livelihood. I think most western countries will be similar.

Compare this with Shanghai China. A real estate industry, that has one rule, which is that there are NO rules. About half the agents are not licensed, and have not sat the exams. The industry is about 15 years old. This helps explain why a good agent is really essential.

Many people think an agent is screwing them with commission. To put some perspective on how meagre the commission is: My real estate friend who concentrates on lower end, (under 10,000), and does it very successfully, but will never be rich.
Lets say she is given a task to find a 5,000 rental. (this is a common figure, one or two bedroom.
As you rightly suggested, the normal commission, would be 35%, but also the landlord would also be up for 35% of one months rent. Total 70%.
As the agent is not licensed, she will need to use an agency with a license. They will share the commission for this privilige.
SO: As history tells us that she will show approximately 10 properties, to get one signed up, this is how it goes:
On a 5,000 property, the total commission will be 3,500, but half goes to the agency, leaving my friend with 1,750. This works out to about RMB 175 for each property shown. Put against this her horrific phone bill, and cost of travel, and you can see why she will never be rich.

You are right that you need to have the real landlord "to stand up please" I have heard of some who sign a contract with a proxy or a landlord living overseas, always ends in disaster.

^Hey, no need to preach to me. After having such a horrific experience, I wouldn't think twice about an agent next time.

Just a question: why are you saying the landlord is also up for 35%? I've never encountered that before. If the landlord wants money, wouldn't they just raise the rent?

Thanks for the reply and clarification.

Nah, not preaching. Hate preachers.
The Shanghai Govt. set guidelines of 70% commission total. Like most guidelines here, just a word.
SO: Normally the landlord will pay their 35 to the agent, and you, the renter, 35. The landlord may not even tell you. This is only in lower end...mind.
Yes, the landlord may in their wisdom add it to the rent, but this is where overall negotiation, (helped by your agent) comes in.

Another thing landlords will try to do is get you to pay their building maintenance fees, or sneekily add it to your rent.
They are legally liable for this, not you, so refuse to wear it, or walk.

monalisalee wrote:SO: Normally the landlord will pay their 35 to the agent, and you, the renter, 35. The landlord may not even tell you.

Sorry, what do you mean the landlord will pay 35 to 'you, the renter'?

No, sorry, they don't pay to you. You, the renter also pay 35%, same as landlord. Goes to agent.

Just wanted to chime in here and UNDERSCORE that the 35% commission paid by the tenant should only occur in lower end properties.......maybe around 7-8k. Monalislee would know better the norm in this area.

With properties in the medium to higher end, the landlord will cover the commission by paying 70-100% of one month's rent and the tenant pays nothing. This is a common practice here with expat agents although more local agents may push for it and want the standard 35/35% as monalisa has explained. Most landlords with medium and higher end properties are fully aware of this and generally have no issues.

BEWARE: If you are negotiating on a medium to higher end property just be careful. The agent maybe getting their 70-100% of a month for commission and then charging the expat as well. New arrivals are often not aware of this and can be taken advantage of. Double dipping is sadly a common practice here. If people use recommended agents they won't have this problem.

Adrienne Farrelly
Shanghai Properties "Expat agents speak your language"
http://www.shanghaiprops.com

Many people think an agent is screwing them with commission. To put some perspective on how meagre the commission is: My real estate friend who concentrates on lower end, (under 10,000), and does it very successfully, but will never be rich.
Lets say she is given a task to find a 5,000 rental. (this is a common figure, one or two bedroom.
As you rightly suggested, the normal commission, would be 35%, but also the landlord would also be up for 35% of one months rent. Total 70%.


Hi, could you post the contact of that lower end agent friend of yours, I might be interested. I'm not a new comer and I know is hard to pass through these so called high end that just pop up everywhere.

capiruli: Sent you a p.m.

monalisalee, do you have a website?

Nope. I am not an agent, just find work for my hard working friend, without competing with Adrienne.

Ah, I see. I guess your friend deals in the lower housing market while Adrienne in the upper.

Guru Pitka wrote:Ah, I see. I guess your friend deals in the lower housing market while Adrienne in the upper.

Yup. You got it Guru Pitka. Monalisalee's friend is excellent and knows this market extremely well. She really understands the needs of expats and is able to find the right kind of housing without all the usual hassles you have dealing with local agents from agencies.

Adrienne Farrelly
Shanghai Properties "Expat agents speak your language"
http://www.shanghaiprops.com

Wish there was a way you guys could be a little more visible in Shanghai (I know these forums are good, but still). I bet more than 90% of newly arrived expats get screwed here simply because they don't have a good agent. I feel most newly arrived people are like sheep who really don't know how vicious locals can be. There should be notices and pamphlets at the airport given as you leave.

Adrienne wrote:

Guru Pitka wrote:Ah, I see. I guess your friend deals in the lower housing market while Adrienne in the upper.

Yup. You got it Guru Pitka. Monalisalee's friend is excellent and knows this market extremely well. She really understands the needs of expats and is able to find the right kind of housing without all the usual hassles you have dealing with local agents from agencies.

Adrienne Farrelly
Shanghai Properties "Expat agents speak your language"
http://www.shanghaiprops.com

Spot on. She (M's friend) found me my perfect place and I advised two of my colleagues to use her. Both happy. A third colleague, who found a place on his own, has lots of stories about problems with his landlord.

BTW "lower" just means in price not quality. My place is modern, beautifully furnished and just 15 minutes walk from my office. Perfect.

God, wish I had seen a thread like this before. lol

Ha Ha. The OP will probably be saying that later.

Sad news a couple days ago, where, because of the new tax imposed on real estate, many are playing the "wait and see" game before buying. This is expected to see a much larger demand for rentals, along with a marked price increase in rentals, as property owners try to recoup the tax.
Another Govt. decision that backfires.