even though there is a clear separation in your mind, to others, "shanghai ren" just refers to people who have lived there for a reasonably long amount of time. you want to distinguish the native shanghai people in a historical context...but unfortunately they are also just referred to as "shanghainese" - the same as for the general reference to people living in shanghai.

it's sort of like the native formosans claiming to be the true taiwanese. everyone else living there are just immigrants from china, right?

The reason why I spend a lot of time to emphasize the difference between outsiders, real Shanghainese and Shanghai 'locals' is that this is something to understand China. Culturally speaking, China is more like a continent than a country. Many people I come across in Europe think China is a vast country with identical culture and people. This is not true.

I apologize if I might sound a bit stuck up, I use these words completely in a neutral sense.

For you , you think that someone has been living somewhere for a reasonable time could be called 'local er'. This would be absolutely right in most European/American cities. But in Shanghai, it might not be that clear cut.

For example, a Cantonese who has been living in SH for a decade may still think himself a Cantonese. There is a barrier of language. But more importantly, the way of thinking and customs are also different. As my humble observation, the difference is even bigger than an English man and a German.

Of course, if an outsider can speak Shanghainese, assimilated with SH culture and thinks himself a Shanghainese, then he is. Although, technically speaking, there is still a problem as he does not hold a HU KOU, a Shanghai Permanent Residence ID card. Just ten years ago, without this card, an outsider can not stay in SH for more than 14 days. This so called 'compulsory expel' policy was abolished not very long before. So you can not blame people for having such a separation.

also, several "outside people" living in shanghai, who i know hail from far flung provinces, have demonstrated very sophisticated manners that i am yet to witness from anyone else here.

all this talk of "outside people" is pretty silly really, as the comparison with new york highlights and it's the same thing in london. it would be considered pretty daft to quibble that someone, to constitute a londoner has to be an aborigine, although the rightwing, british national party, do exactly this. london is a diverse city with a wealth of culture and contrast from a huge cross section of the worlds people, who have become londoners. although i have grown to dislike living in london over many years, i respect and welcome it's variety.

shanghai is the new york/london of china and it's ever growing population of outsiders is something that the local residents should celebrate rather than fear, right down to the guy on the tricycle that many stuck up residents here look down upon and tell me not to trust. there is an assumed snobbery in shanghai that often comes from the local shanghainese that comes across as a misplaced superiority complex. the truth as i see it is, that shanghai, is extremely sophisticated - for a developing country. but as a city from developed country, as a whole, its got a hell of a long way to go.

i really welcome bayonets posts here, i would love to hear more about your thoughts on shanghai. also, your navigations of pudong sound very interesting, i really enjoy cycling around pudong i would have loved to have seen it prior to its massive development. i am also very glad that you say excuse me before you shove someone, this is the very pinnacle of good manners.

I appreciate your contribution. It is very helpful. Also, I understand this whole topic may sound very silly for a foreigner to see how Chinese divide themselves within the country.

I used to come across a Fujianese ( people from Fujian province) who sells small gadgets on the streets of London. We were eating at the same table so we began to talk. In the conversation, she referred to me as ''you foreigner'' . I was a bit surprised at first since we are from the same country. At a second thought, I had to admit that to me she would not be much closer than a ginger hair bloke from Edinburger. Thanks to the years long communist national identity promotion propaganda, we talk very much abt Chinese as a whole now. But for some, things do not change.

I agree that there are Shanghaiese looking down up on their compatriots from outside with ridiculous reasons. Some of them are really annoying. This shows how weak, arrogant and scared of them from deep down.

But for others, to emphasize they are SHnese is simply a defense mechanism working in their consciousness. The problem is for the past 15 years, there has been an explosive expansion of population in SH. Not only the jobs are gone, a more concerned issue is the marginalising of the SH culture and its people.

Imagine Britain was flooded with Muslim population and what worse is the Muslim claimed that the Britain should be converted from a Christian country (although it is hardly a Christian country now) to a Islamic country. What would be the reaction of the Britannia? I am afraid Tony would have been busy with BNP instead of Lib Dem now.

This is what has happened to SH, the outsider population is growing into a degree that you even can not speak your mother tongue in the workplace. We appreciate diversity but it is on our own term, not outsider's.


Sidenotes: See windows with railling and bars on in the residential buildings? They were hardly there 20 years ago. also, from the SH Municipal Public Security Statistics (2006), outsiders account for 79% of violent crimes, 90% of petty crimes. We are talking a city with many social problems because of overpopulation.

I have a staff who is from Chong Ming Island, her family does farming for living. She is one of the most talented staff members that I have met in SH, smart, organized, loyal, very hygienic and has good manners.

I am not against outsiders. I just don't like people cast us into the same category. I am sure if you mistaken a Cantonese as a Shanghaiese, he would not be very happy either.

good:
1. I can piss anywhere.
2. I can ride my cheep broken electric scooter anywhere except into McDonald's.
3. I can push into any line.
4. cheep dvd's / food
5. pollution blocks all vision so i see more of what i want and less of what i don't want.

bad:
traffic lights (you need to learn to drive on the sidewalks)
noise

Good
-Cheap street food (deal with sickness/the runs the next day, but oh well)
-Easy commute

Bad
-Can't find properly priced, authentic foreign products.

good
- i can take a taxi anywhere
- booze is fairly cheap, except at paulaner's (it's more expensive than at the oktoberfest wtf?!)
- funny people everywhere
- the economy is doing pretty well at the moment, compared to old europe - works for me!

bad
- humidity...it kills me
- airconditions which are set to 1 or 2 degrees below the outside temperature
- scooters!
- people with umbrellas (keep them out of my eyes, thanks!)
- people with nail clippers in my office *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* *clip* STOP IT!

good

1.- overall cheap food/clothing/transportation
2.- decent places to go
3.- security on the streets (i believe cops are everywhere right?)
4.- nice people (when they are not pushing you)
5.- good weather in summer

bad
1.- scooters
2.- sellers of fake watches/bags pissing you all the way down nanjing lu
3.- pimps outside hotels trying to sell you the latest hot chinese vagina
4.- bums around the city chasing you for money
5.- shoe shine guys (is that how you call them?), they have pissed me off twice!

Top 5:
- buzzing, exciting city, always something happening
- general relative attractiveness of the local chickies compared to the west
- very easy to make lots of and/or very good and interesting friends, expat and local
- the range of food
- relative proximity to the rest of the far east

Worst 5:
- noise and air pollution
- horrific lack of reasonably easy access to (clean) nature (hills, beaches, forest, mountains)
- poor hygiene / cleanliness almost everywhere
- dealing with the more idiotic features of Chinese 'thinking'
- the transient nature of friends

traveler2 wrote:good
3.- security on the streets (i believe cops are everywhere right?)

Really? I think those are just the maintainance/security people of all the office buildings in their funny uniforms. But if you're curious, real police don't wear sneakers

And be glad they're selling watches. In Beijing they're selling SOCKS! (why socks? I dunno). "Socks Mister? Socks for your wife? Socks for your girlfriend???". what's up with that?

overall, i LOVE shanghai a lot but i hate the people here ...

good:
safety
taxi everywhere
cheap DVD
pretty girls everywhere
cheap local food

bad:
barbarian everywhere .. pushing,shouting,being nasty,pretender(act rich/smart/educated)
expensive foreign food
hygience
rental

Top 5
1. Haibao
2. Making peace signs in photos
3. Black hair dye
4. Crowded Subways
5. Company Names

Worst 5
1. People who walk in straight lines
2. Nescafe
3. The law banning men's and women's departments in clothing stores.
4. Chinese Muzak
5. Mission Impossible 3

Best: subway, food, modern style, entertainment, working environment
Worst: specific awearness, weather, bus, housing, clothes

Best:
-Delicious cheap food, cooking at home is not much cheaper than eating out every day.
-24 hour economy, you can get anything you want, at any time you want, wherever you are.
-Impressing huge, tall, beautiful, buildings/parks/streets/views.
-When you get to know Chinese friends better, they are great to be with.
-Getting off the subway at any crowded station, and body check the first 15 people who try to get it before you get out and see how far you can drag them, I love it.
-Even while you work everyday, doesn't it just all feel like one big holiday??

Worst;
- Chinese poking your eyes out with umbrella's, (Im 2 feet taller than the average Chinese, but still when they see me coming they will put the umbrella up so high that it will fit right into my eye! )
-Driving crazy on moped on the sidewalks
-Pedestrians using up the entire width of the sidewalk. going left and right and can't seem to walk straight.
-People/bikes/moped/cars that just make a 90 degree turn on the sidewalk not even caring if you are standing there or not... damn I hate that. I deliberately keep walking hoping to knock them off their feet/bike
-The allround perception of Chinese that foreigners are rich, so they can charge them more. Oh yeah, and we all have aids..
-What I also hate is that Chinese believe everything they are being told by ... you know what.
-They will call in sick or go to hospital for every sneez, cold or headache.
-Hearing nail clippers all day, same counts for : laowai laowai, na guo ning, gang longa (is this the right way?) , and people reminding you you're tall about a million times a day. Oh yeah, thanks... i forgot. Oh really? Oh.. yeah i know. Ohh no Im not tall, you're just small. And so on and so on..

But still, I love being here!! (i really do)

kwramm wrote:

traveler2 wrote:good
3.- security on the streets (i believe cops are everywhere right?)

Really? I think those are just the maintainance/security people of all the office buildings in their funny uniforms. But if you're curious, real police don't wear sneakers

And be glad they're selling watches. In Beijing they're selling SOCKS! (why socks? I dunno). "Socks Mister? Socks for your wife? Socks for your girlfriend???". what's up with that?

Yeah i know no cop wear sneakers lol but yeah, i believe ive seen enough real cops to feel secure, plus i believe chineses dont fcuk with people bigger than them

lol at socks!!! but i think nothing beats the non stop 24/7 "LOLEX LOLEX LOLEX LU VITTON LOLEX LU VITTON MOM BLANC MOM BLANC"...

interesting comments
I like all you like, and I dislike all you dislike
I don't like the weather in shanghai, you can see the blue sky very few day in a year.
But I like Shanghai because it always has multiple choices, which makes my life more diversity.

I love that it is so flat so there is not much effort needed to bike
I dont like that people bike too slowly, or too careless, or on you when you walk on the sidewalk
I do love that if i by any means bike on the sidewalk myself, noone cares
I dont like the spitting, puking and all the other bodlily fluids from left to right
I love that the shops are open everyday and they stay open late
I love the contrasts of old meets new
I dont like that the old parts seems to disappear more and more
I love the life and the lichi martinis:)

check out our blog about shanghai and some other fantastic places at
http://www.amazedandconfused.com

I agree with you but i like everything in shanghai like food, accommodation and many more...

Good:

1-Foreign food
2-Taxis
3-Buying industrial stuff (tools ect)
4-My apartment
5-Seeing idiots crash their scooters

Bad:

1-Shanghainese
2-Wannabe Shanghainese
3-Loser foreigners that make all of us look like clowns
4-Shanghainese that think they are foreigners
5-Shanghainese that speak Shanghainese all the time to show they are "real Shanghainese"

Good:
1. Ayi cooking meals is awesome.
2. Never needing to do my own laundry ^
3. Cost of food.
4. Partying is available at any hour.
5. No last call.

Bad:
1. Shanghai has the most suicidal drivers I've ever seen.
2. Pushy sellers in markets.
3. Cost of
4. Pollution
5. The fact that everyone smokes and expects you too as well.

good:
1) nice people
2) copying
3) nice food
4) quoting exorbitant prices
5) selling online stuffs (taobao!)

bad:
1) air pollution
2) oily and salty food
3) loud
4) bad drivers
5) service

E8L wrote:Goods about Shanghai:
-Convinient and cheap public transport, and that guanxi thingy on the cell phone to always find the location is so convinient!
-Nice food and scenaries
-Cute girls
-Clubs and karaoke
-Some things are just cheap like massages and DVDs.

Bads:
-Expensive imports (most expensive in China!)
-Floor based toilets
-Manners, especially traffic manners and people walking on the streets suddenly flem out a spit!
-Expensive rent.
-Beggars that never give up and will also follow you into your taxi!

I can' t agree more

Good:
- Cheap transportation, great subway system
- Yay ayi! Makes live easy easy
- Best in the world skyline
- Lots of activity, not boring, lots to do
- Good food

Bad:
- Rudeness (pushing, queue-jumping, spitting)
- Dirtiness at street level, people throw their garbage in the streets (really don't understand this one; even bears are smart enough not to s#*t where they eat, but you throw garbage where you live???)
- Can't buy replacement USA XBox 360 for my red-ring-of-death just-died one
- Car and motorcycle danger to pedestrians
- Not particularly friendly (expected in a city this big, bit still it is a negative to me so there it is)

Best:

- Cheap things everywhere~
- Lots of things to do (Anime shops, shopping centers, movie theaters, etc.)
- The temperature
And this is really a China thing, but:
- taobao
- my school!
And a rebellious six:
- how free everyone is. That guy over there blowing his nose and adjusting his wedgie there doesn't care what you think. It's what people do in Shanghai. Remember in America how people looked at you in disgust when you go over to a random clearing and start unzipping? Not in Shanghai, my friend, not in Shanghai.

Worst:

- foreigners who can't seem to get that if you're in another country, it means you need to adjust to it, not that it has to adjust to you
- rude Chinese people who don't get that spitting is kind of disgusting, and shoving is plain rude
- racism. Being Asian-American makes things difficult to deal with, because you get flank from both ends...
- no more pirated Dvds =(

I can't think of any more.

E8L wrote:Goods about Shanghai:
-Convinient and cheap public transport, and that guanxi thingy on the cell phone to always find the location is so convinient!
-Nice food and scenaries
-Cute girls
-Clubs and karaoke
-Some things are just cheap like massages and DVDs.

Bads:
-Expensive imports (most expensive in China!)
-Floor based toilets
-Manners, especially traffic manners and people walking on the streets suddenly flem out a spit!
-Expensive rent.
-Beggars that never give up and will also follow you into your taxi!


5 things are just too little the list of goods and bads can go on and on! Overall I like Shanghai!

Completely agreed with you. Traffic is terrible. it's such a problem for me to walk cross a street safely. NO ONE would stop their fuGGING cars for you while cross the street. The bus drivers are the most retarded people I've ever seen( spitting , rude and racing buses)
Burglar with weapon everywhere. It's kind of scary.

Bah!

Huanle wrote:Best:

- Cheap things everywhere~

You mean cheap unreliable, defective and unsafe things everywhere.

Huanle wrote:Best:
- Lots of things to do (Anime shops, shopping centers, movie theaters, etc.)

Um...Where are you coming from? Afghanistan? They have this crap everywhere in the world that has roads.

Huanle wrote:Best:
- The temperature

Are you high? I have never heard even from Shanghainese that the weather is good here. have you been here for winter? Where are you really from? If this polluted climate is "good" I cant even imagine what you consider bad? Nuclear fallout?

Huanle wrote:Best:
And this is really a China thing, but:
- taobao

Like wasting money on fake/defective products from scammers...

Huanle wrote:Best:
And a rebellious six:
- how free everyone is. That guy over there blowing his nose and adjusting his wedgie there doesn't care what you think. It's what people do in Shanghai. Remember in America how people looked at you in disgust when you go over to a random clearing and start unzipping? Not in Shanghai, my friend, not in Shanghai.

Your an idiot. Give it two more months and you will realize there is noting "rebellious" or "fee" about lack of civilization or morals. Wait till you are almost or actually run over by a "rebellious & free" drunk retard in his Audi A4 on his way to KTV. My mom and sister are Chinese from SH and they cant stand it here anymore then me. Place has some cool stuff and people but people behaving like rabid dogs is not cute...

Huanle wrote:Best:
Worst:

- foreigners who can't seem to get that if you're in another country, it means you need to adjust to it, not that it has to adjust to you

I agree with you on some points but remember you have probably been here for a lot shorter time then some of us. I was alot more bright eyed and bushy tailed before I watched an animal run down a 5 year old child in the cross walk because he was in a hurry. Or the great Chinese products that self destruct as you are unpacking them.

Huanle wrote:Best:
- rude Chinese people who don't get that spitting is kind of disgusting, and shoving is plain rude

You just said above these where "rebellious & free"?

Huanle wrote:Best:
- racism. Being Asian-American makes things difficult to deal with, because you get flank from both ends...

Try being African living in China. I have no idea how my friend does it.

Huanle wrote:Best:
I can't think of any more.

Wait two more months and you will have lots to say....

You mean cheap unreliable, defective and unsafe things everywhere.

We get what we pay for. *shrugs* If you want to pay more for quality, you can. It's your choice, man. I'll take my chances and not blame everyone else for my own cheapness.

Um...Where are you coming from? Afghanistan? They have this crap everywhere in the world that has roads.

At least Shanghai has the same "crap" that the rest of the world has where there are roads. *raises eyesbrows* And that "crap" is easily accessible.

Are you high? I have never heard even from Shanghainese that the weather is good here. have you been here for winter? Where are you really from? If this polluted climate is "good" I cant even imagine what you consider bad? Nuclear fallout?

I like the cold, ergo, I like the winter here. By temperature, I meant hot/cold, not pollution. Way to extrapolate, douche.

Like wasting money on fake/defective products from scammers...

Hm, this may be getting into a moral grey spot, but fake is what I'm buying, so I get what I ask for. It's only a scam if you aren't aware of what you're getting for your money. Sheesh man, I'm only talking about books, DVDs, and small things like necklaces. What have you been buying that makes you so cynical?

Your an idiot.

At least I can spell.

Give it two more months and you will realize there is noting "rebellious" or "fee" about lack of civilization or morals. Wait till you are almost or actually run over by a "rebellious & free" drunk retard in his Audi A4 on his way to KTV. My mom and sister are Chinese from SH and they cant stand it here anymore then me. Place has some cool stuff and people but people behaving like rabid dogs is not cute...

I've been here for almost eight years, and I have to say that your opinion that Shanghai has a "lack of civilization [and] morals" is pretty subjective. I'm talking about how the "proper behavior" expected in America is less expected here, and that's more freeing because a lot of people here care less about what others think of them.

And I said nothing about "rebellious" in regards to the behavior of Shanghainese people, I meant that I was being rebellious by adding a sixth "Best," when the -- oh, what am I doing? You probably won't understand this explanation anyways.

On a side note, I consider drunk driving illegal, so my comment is referring to freedom in action excludes illegal activity.

I was a lot more bright eyed and bushy tailed before I watched an animal run down a 5 year old child in the cross walk because he was in a hurry.

Well you should tell that story to that American kid who jumped out in front of my taxi in my compound while it was in motion and started shaking his butt at us!

You just said above these where "rebellious & free"?

I said that they were "free," and the actions I'm annoyed at are the actions that cause harm to other people (referring to the shoving thing).

Try being African living in China.

Alright, I don't get it. Are you saying that no one other than, apparently, yourself and your African friend can complain at all?

Wait two more months and you will have lots to say....

To be honest, I'll think I'll have to wait another ten or twenty years until I'm as old and cynical and pessimistic as you are in order to see things as you do.

Well that was a nicely formulated answer. Different way of looking at things here. And yes you can spell better then me

Best: Always something to bitch about

Worst: Always something to bitch about

Worst: people always fart in the subway during morning rush hour

Can you guys imagine the morning fart!!!! my worse nightmare, i have to wear mask to go to work and that only slowing them down. T_T