TaiShan wrote:it's never going to change. after the cultural revolution the chinese mind was as blank as a piece of paper b4 you print anything on it. no culture, a revised language (simplified which means simpler mind and thus thought process), no morals or values, and any morals and values that are left are survived only by the peasants from the mao era who are dying at a rate i'm happy to see them leave by.

I guess you're a "glass is half empty" kind of guy. I think it might take a while, but it'll get better. I already see big changes in the younger generation in terms of queuing, spitting etc as well as personal hygiene, taste for western food etc. Most of my colleagues are as disgusted as I am when they see someone spit on the floor of a hotel lobby and certainly wouldn't be seen doing it themselves.

Okay, I'll take off the rose coloured specs now ....

KELLA wrote:@kkchen
just ignore all the above complaints, the truth is all the foreigners here love shanghai, why they are here if they dont like it?

That explaination is much too simple, think about that again. Are all soldiers fighting in a war there because they love to fight and risk their lives? Do people who scrub toilets for a living do it because they love it?

Of course not ALL foreigners love it here. I know a few who can't wait to leave and I know lots who are having the time of their lives.

KELLA wrote:@kkchen
just ignore all the above complaints, the truth is all the foreigners here love shanghai, why they are here if they dont like it?

I don't know about you, but I was sent here to do a job. Not my choice. I try to make the best of it, but I am definitely not here for my health or the nice weather.

KELLA wrote:@kkchen
just ignore all the above complaints, the truth is all the foreigners here love shanghai, why they are here if they dont like it?

肯定被洗脑了
或不可能说出怎么苯的话
Good example of the brainwashing as no one in their right mind would post something so obviously not true .

There is a variety of reasons people live in shanghai, both foreigners and other Chinese, and not the leastt of it is because they LIKE Shanghai. Yes, some do, but many more are here for the opportunities it offers. I would suggest visiting a few other countries before deciding that its automatic that one would live here only b/c one likes the place. Sadly, many people do not CHOOSE to take a harder road and essentially end up here with their jobs, but that does not mean they will like it here.

will it ever get better? who do these youngsters model their behaviour on? the west? the east? the middle? the south? their parents? their grandparents? a handful of foreign teachers? a handful of untouchable rich and famous?

they've been brainwashed so that they can be easily led. yet it seems as though no1 is leading or is allowed to lead, and they don't even wnat to take the reigns and lead themsleves to greener pastures. the Gov talks about GDP and 5 year plans and everybody models themselves on that. yet it is not appropraite for all to model themseves on 1.

i'm a half full kinda guy. got my eyes on the prize and can't wait to taste the victory champagne.

yes i love china, but it saddens me sometimes, looking out of my apartment/office tower thinking that all i'm looking at are a billion 9 - 5 drones and 600 000 000 cheats.

there are exceptions and nobody is the same, but the general mind-track is single minded. like horses wearing blinkers.

i wonder where this lack of trust stems from? why cheat and lie? is that winning or losing face? why do you want face? .....

It's called '5000 years and still developing'.

findus wrote:

kkchen wrote:

findus wrote:

kkchen wrote:stop complainin on your f*ckin stupidity just because u have to learn it from the hard way, and since u're so smart like u said, i guess there's still a long way for you to go, otherwise just go back to wherever the **** hole u're from

Where we come from (far less of a shiithole that China, I'm afraid to say), it's not 'stupidity' to trust people.

what i m sayin is that u get shitty people all over the world, it might be true that there are more people here tryin to rip u off or cheat your money and shiit, the truth is there are far more people here than most of other countries in the world, u gotta play by the rules here, and don't just emphasize on all the wrong shiits people done, have u appreciate the good things? people should be aware of all these things before they come to china, ask others if you're not sure where to get things, it's not stupid to trust people, it's stupid that u didn't do your homework and get cheated and put the whole nation on trial.

'More people in China' is irrelevant, we're talking about the percentage of our dealings with locals.

It's kinda stupid not to do your homework, but at the same time it's often very hard for westerners to believe (and therefore predict) just how untrustworthy so many people here can be. I've NOW been here long enough to understand what many people will be like here, when I first came I wouldn't have believed it as it's so against my own country's 'fair play' culture.

I think most of us appreciate the good things, but the bad things are what get to us and what makes us pissed off, which is why so many people use forums to vent.

Damn dude, of course it's relevant, u think people here are born to cheat, to steal, to rip you off? u think they like the fact that the rest of their family is in some outer-real-shithole villages farming and makin 500rmb a year and while himself got not enough education to make a decent living here in Shanghai like the rest of us? Just think for a while, then u'll figure that lotta problems are not simply "because chinese are like that", they're all related, and for the rest of you people think its a shithole here, do you know how many locals are complaining? nothin against anybody, it's just the way it is here. Of course you have to protect yourself within the society, sometimes you gotta fight back, but think about it, what if you don't have the power to fight, to resist, to complain, to even have the enough rights that a person would get in some other places in the world, would you steal? would cheat? would you do whatever you can to make things better? also u gotta look into history too, there just so many shiits that caused what it is today... anyway, just do your homework and read some of the good tips that people've posted, otherwise don't f8ckin blame others

I don't think it's confined to just China either. In Australia, for instance, Chinese migrants take a lot of their culture, the good and bad, and I must honestly say it often doesn't mix in well with the existing Aussie culture. Ask almost any Aussie sales person, real estate agent, tradesman etc, who it is most difficult to do business with, and you'll pretty much always get the same answer. I know a lot of Chinese back home, and honestly, almost every one is somehow paying less tax than they should be, one way or another, and boasting about it, too. Examples - I know a guy who runs a, lets say, Asian fast-food shop by City Hall (pretty prime real estate). He gets the shop for $200 a week because it's classed as a "sharing of culture". And believe me, he is raking it in. At school, Chinese kids used to come to school in their BMW's and Audi's, showing off as they always do, but they were collecting Austudy (student allowance) which is usually for low-income earning families. While the average Joe slaves away paying full tax to a burgeoning and corrupt infastructure. Chinese - I mean you've got to hand it to them - they are just so good at taking advantage of a system, and other people.

kkchen wrote:

findus wrote:

kkchen wrote:

findus wrote:

kkchen wrote:stop complainin on your f*ckin stupidity just because u have to learn it from the hard way, and since u're so smart like u said, i guess there's still a long way for you to go, otherwise just go back to wherever the **** hole u're from

Where we come from (far less of a shiithole that China, I'm afraid to say), it's not 'stupidity' to trust people.

what i m sayin is that u get shitty people all over the world, it might be true that there are more people here tryin to rip u off or cheat your money and shiit, the truth is there are far more people here than most of other countries in the world, u gotta play by the rules here, and don't just emphasize on all the wrong shiits people done, have u appreciate the good things? people should be aware of all these things before they come to china, ask others if you're not sure where to get things, it's not stupid to trust people, it's stupid that u didn't do your homework and get cheated and put the whole nation on trial.

'More people in China' is irrelevant, we're talking about the percentage of our dealings with locals.

It's kinda stupid not to do your homework, but at the same time it's often very hard for westerners to believe (and therefore predict) just how untrustworthy so many people here can be. I've NOW been here long enough to understand what many people will be like here, when I first came I wouldn't have believed it as it's so against my own country's 'fair play' culture.

I think most of us appreciate the good things, but the bad things are what get to us and what makes us pissed off, which is why so many people use forums to vent.

... would you steal? would cheat? would you do whatever you can to make things better?

No. I've been in bad situations before and never, NEVER, would it cross my mind to improve my situation by directly conning someone or stealing from them, thus making their life worse.

anyway, just do your homework and read some of the good tips that people've posted, otherwise don't f8ckin blame others

Don't blame the other person if I'm cheated? Conned? Pickpocketed? Hit by any one of a million retarded 'drivers'?.... Right? Wrong.

Chinese cheating on each other is like a survival mechanism, if they don't cheat on that person then that person will cheat on them. It's a sh*t or be sh*t on world for them. China is still a poor country, I think the majority of Chinese people are poor, there are just a few 'lucky' ones who are stupidly rich, and no they're not rich, they are stupidly rich. The only way they got rich is by using their guanxi, lying, bribing, sucking c*ck and back stabbing. They want to get rich because a) it makes life nice and b) it is "to be glorious". To be glorious is to have such amazing face which to the Chinese is so utterly valuable (I've never understood the concept of face to them).

I'm not entirely sure where the whole culture of cheating came from though, I just know they all do it because otherwise someone else is going to do it. Again I blame their government, I'm just gonna blame everything on the stupid communists cause I hate them.

Although, you've got to wonder, what would happen if the communists died out in China and suddenly it switched to democracy and all this lying and cheating and exploiting had to stop. Would China be able to cope with democracy? Maybe all of China's problems stem from the fact that it has the largest population of any country in the world by far.

Sorry, a bit random.

Wow. Woaishanghai07 you really are a very angry person. It appears you really hate China and all things Chinese. That's too bad. I really enjoy my time in China and I have met some wonderful people. I have also learned how they do business and have adapted to it.

Its like crossing the street. Here the cars have the right away not the people. It is different then in the states. Not that one is better then the other, it's just different.

I really think you need to smell the roses and not the ****.

Yeah sorry I came across as pretty angry, I didn't mean to. I don't really hate China and the Chinese, I just really feel the need to vent about these things sometimes cause they really irritate me. I should be a bit more positive really.

I do actually love China and find they value certain things that we forget to over here in the West. It's just a culture I've found really difficult to adapt to.

Im glad you really do like China.
I do a lot of business in China, and it has been a long and very costly learning period. I have been told when I have been cheated it was my fault because I let them cheat me. Now when I make a purchase, someone who works for me is at the factory and watches and takes pictures of the entire process. When it is loaded in a Container and the container is sealed one of my people stay with it and follow it to the port.
They expect to be watched from their customer and if you don't watch them then your fair game. I am only a little stupid, once I understand the game, I do ok.

In my personal life, in China is very different. I have only Chinese friends and I am very fond of them and their families. They work hard and place a premium on Education. If the fruit stand rips me off I really don't care. If a local takes advantage of me, I really don't care. Ten containers of plywood I CARE

Well that's cool.

I suppose at the end of the day the east is the east and the west is the west, that's just the way things are in China. Chinese coming over to England must have big problems with how rude people are and how much they love to drink and how lazy they are and so many other things too.

I'm in England at the moment and planning on going back to China soon, if I didn't like China then I wouldn't go back, but these things are gonna piss me off and you'll probably see quite a few angry posts from me in the future complaining about the Chinese, but yeah it's just my way of venting.

Hey I love Hot Dogs and French Fries. I hate English food! I really think at the end of all the days, we are the most comfortable being in our own Homes with our own friends and family.

How does it go no matter how from I roam there's no place like home.

Also I try to always live by" When In Rome"
Enjoy your rants.

Haha "When in Rome" is an excuse I have used for doing some things in China that are considered most wrong where I come from!

TaiShan wrote:yes i love china

Judging from the vitriol spewed forth, I think not.

Most ungracious of a guest.
Keep in mind, this is what you (and the rest of us expats) are.
Just a guest.

SnappySammy wrote:How does it go no matter how from I roam there's no place like home.

Isn't "home" where the heart lies?

Whole lot of racism here. Go root your snout someplace else if you're so superior.

TAISHAN - GENERALLY SPEAKING, I COULDN"T AGREED WITH YOU MORE ON YOUR OPINION AND OBSERVATION ABOUT mainland CHINESE, CULTURAL REVOLUTION, ETC...

The only reason I could stand being here for 2 more years is knowing that I can go home after my contract is done.

woaishanghai07 wrote:Well that's cool.

I suppose at the end of the day the east is the east and the west is the west, that's just the way things are in China. Chinese coming over to England must have big problems with how rude people are and how much they love to drink and how lazy they are and so many other things too.

I'm in England at the moment and planning on going back to China soon, if I didn't like China then I wouldn't go back, but these things are gonna piss me off and you'll probably see quite a few angry posts from me in the future complaining about the Chinese, but yeah it's just my way of venting.

I am Chinese, one of the kind that you dislike. England is one of the major territory for our business, and I can tell you we have been cheated or lied to most by the English customers. Once, after they received 6 containers from us, they wanted to put in a claim of ₤8000 for re-boxing as according to them, the pallets crushed and all the boxes were broken. We asked for pictures to show the damage, and finally they admitted there were only 16 boxes (out of 2000) were broken. Another customer wanted to claim us based on labour ₤300/hr, and do you know any worker in England that makes that much? I can give you another 100 or more similar stories if you are interested. My point is such thing happens everywhere in the world... the only difference is if it happens in China, you call it CHEATING, and if it happens in the west, you call it BUSINESS SKILLS.

Don't give me wrong - I don't dislike the English at all. In fact, my best friend is one of my English customers, who has been doing the offshore purchase from China for a few years. During every trip to Shanghai, he tries hard to learn the culture and business manners here, to make friends with the people he needs to deal with, and of course he has been rewarded with the maximum help from all of us to make his (and his company's) business activity more successful!!!

For whatever reason that you come to China, there should be some motivation. Show the reasonable amount of respect to the local and be more friendly and tolarent will only benefit yourself. Most of the Chinese wouldn't be rude unless they were insulted.

HaHa. Froginwell, I like you!!

What Froginwell says is true to a point, I mean we deal with complete ******* western customers on a weekly basis too, but I equate that more to the normal percentage of assholes who exist in each society anywhere in the world, as opposed to it being a cultural thing. I would add though that of our overseas customers, Chinese are still the hardest to do business with. My own boss (Chinese) groans every time a Chinese name pops up into our customer account.

maneo wrote:

TaiShan wrote:yes i love china

Judging from the vitriol spewed forth, I think not.

Most ungracious of a guest.
Keep in mind, this is what you (and the rest of us expats) are.
Just a guest.

Yeah, we're guests, that's fine. But when they go to the west we hand them passports like candy, they're not guests but citizens.

leidelaohu wrote:

TheDudeAbides wrote: I would add though that of our overseas customers, Chinese are still the hardest to do business with. My own boss (Chinese) groans every time a Chinese name pops up into our customer account.

Try India. Gag.

Hell yeah!

The total price is $15,000.

Can we get a 50% discount? Sorry no.
25%? No.
10%? No sorry we cannot budge on the price.
$100 discount? No.
$5? Dude......

Completely true story.

CK1 - You don't need to add that it's a true story, I can well believe it!!

Haha its beggars belief sometimes...

SnappySammy wrote:I don't know when you say we who we are. It's not easy for PRC citizens to get work visa's to US. We don't handout passports to anyone. There's a quota on Canadians coming to US to work. It's very difficult for Chinese to come to US.

Maybe not easy but it's the fact that it is possible. Besides, I don't know about numbers and figures but I do know that there are a LOT of Chinese who have been given citizenship in western countries. Not that I have a problem with that in principle (I myself was an immigrant to Australia at an early age) it's like I said before, the "guests" tag that some like to put on expats here is not reasonable, when it's such a one way street at the moment.

Maneo wrote:
"Most ungracious of a guest.
Keep in mind, this is what you (and the rest of us expats) are.
Just a guest."


Yes we are guests. No argument there.

But I also pay 40% Income tax to the Chinese Government, do more to support the Chinese economy in terms of consumer spending than 99% of the Chinese citizens, and drop about USD $50,000 a year on the Air Transport and Hotel Industry for my business travel. My job is to help support and grow a Chinese registered diviion of my MNC....which employs about 5,000 Chinese citizens, and has annual revenues in excess of USD$1 Billion. Profits on which are taxed also of course.

And for this I do get treated at times quite rudely and like I do not belong here.
Which is fine....does not bother me.
And I try to always be unfailingly polite to ALL people no matter what the situation.
I like it here, I enjoy my job here, enjoy working with my Chinese colleaques...and will stay as long as they let me.

At times there seems to be a bit of "LaoWai" go home sentiment even on this board.

We may be guests....but a little consideration for the value we bring in that role would be an enexpected pleasure some days when I have been made to feel like an "unwanted" guest.

(Do not expect that to happen anytime soon though! )