Hello expats!

I like coffee, and also would like to make good coffee by myself. I know there are some schools training people who want to work in a coffee shop. But I just want to learn it for fun. Any suggestions? Thank you!

"kills" is killing the answers. Sorry, I mean skills.

It never ceases to amaze me how people will PAY for what is essentially a slave-labor job.

This might sound kinda crazy but if you want to be a barrista why not just get a job at Starbucks? They have extensive training courses called "working there".

I can do some basic latte art, and would love to work as a barista for a couple of weeks to learn a lot faster. I make maybe 1,000 cappuccinos a year at home. I could make that many in a week or two working as a barista in a busy shop. Imagine how much my technique would improve!

Great job for a week or two.

Not much point doing a course unless you either (1) want to work as a barista, or (2) have a good espresso machine and grinder at home.

You said you just want to do it for fun. What gear do you have at home? There are a lot of great sites which can teach you the basics. Start with those, then when you have the basics mastered, do a course.

Having said that, I don't think there are any courses in Shanghai. That's probably a good business opening for someone.

^ Good point, TD. Virtually everything I know about making espresso-based drinks came from the 'net. It helps to have Google, but it may be worth starting at www.coffeegeek.com. That's the site with the best "training wheels". There are many more. When he's graduated from there, he can try www.homebarista.com. It's for the more advanced hobbyist, but there is still a lot that a semi-serious hobbyist can learn from it.

tylerdurden wrote:Not much point doing a course unless you either (1) want to work as a barista, or (2) have a good espresso machine and grinder at home.

You said you just want to do it for fun. What gear do you have at home? There are a lot of great sites which can teach you the basics. Start with those, then when you have the basics mastered, do a course.

Having said that, I don't think there are any courses in Shanghai. That's probably a good business opening for someone.

Not to mention also having good beans too TD, yea?

Also guys, everyone came down rather hard on this guy...yeah?

For whatever reasons he has for being wanting to be dead ended barista he was shot down rather hard. C'mon, Expats get shat on by Chinese everyday, at least let a new guy prove he's a right knob first before the shots are fired.

Wadda - u - say?

Yeah?

The guy from V Coffee offered to give me some training when I first got my espresso machine, never took him up on it though..

my coffee still sucks...

boywonder wrote:The guy from V Coffee offered to give me some training when I first got my espresso machine, never took him up on it though..

my coffee still sucks...

And you call yourself the boy wonder





Wonderless boy

Quote this to see the html coding for Hyperlinks

HAVE YOU SEEN MY LOG?? It is awesome....

tihZ_hO wrote:Also guys, everyone came down rather hard on this guy...yeah?

For whatever reasons he has for being wanting to be dead ended barista he was shot down rather hard. C'mon, Expats get shat on by Chinese everyday, at least let a new guy prove he's a right knob first before the shots are fired.

Wadda - u - say?

Yeah?

Point taken. I'm sure this guy is just a hobbyist looking to increase his skills. But it seems like an awful lot of trouble to go to in order to make yourself a cup of coffee.

OP - Just do some research, buy yourself a decent esspresso machine and start making yourself java.
I still maintain by far the best way to get prof skills would be to get a job at a coffee shop and have them pay you to learn. This is how it's been done since time began. Not as cool an option in Shanghai I understand as it would be if you had been slumming it at an independant coffee shop in Seattle in the 90's.

I did see a white guy working at Coffee bean in XTD around 2005. Young guy - looked high school aged. His mandarin was pretty good. Good enough for slinging coffee anyways. I assumed at the time he was an expat or embassy brat who's parents had got sick of having him hanging around the house all summer. Good for him. I bet his Chinese got real good real fast.

It's going to be hard to make good coffee in Shanghai. The milk is terrible. I've resorted to dash of cream in my coffee rather (UHT) milk sold here or used at the cafes. On the way to work this morning I stopped by Costa and picked up a four shot coffee with some milk. It was ghastly, spit, spit....
How to get the taste out of my mouth?
The problem was the taste of the milk which killed any pleasing taste of coffee.
Barista kills coffee is right.

tylerdurden wrote:Not much point doing a course unless you either (1) want to work as a barista, or (2) have a good espresso machine and grinder at home.

You said you just want to do it for fun. What gear do you have at home? There are a lot of great sites which can teach you the basics. Start with those, then when you have the basics mastered, do a course.

Having said that, I don't think there are any courses in Shanghai. That's probably a good business opening for someone.

Thanks! I guess I would have a machine first.

anter wrote:It's going to be hard to make good coffee in Shanghai. The milk is terrible. I've resorted to dash of cream in my coffee rather (UHT) milk sold here or used at the cafes. On the way to work this morning I stopped by Costa and picked up a four shot coffee with some milk. It was ghastly, spit, spit....
How to get the taste out of my mouth?
The problem was the taste of the milk which killed any pleasing taste of coffee.
Barista kills coffee is right.

Unfortunately and fortunately I don't know any other milk tasting better than "Bright". I am used to Chinese milk.

Some books, or reference websites, your own machine, purchase of different beans, trial-and-error.

anter wrote:It's going to be hard to make good coffee in Shanghai. The milk is terrible. I've resorted to dash of cream in my coffee rather (UHT) milk sold here or used at the cafes. On the way to work this morning I stopped by Costa and picked up a four shot coffee with some milk. It was ghastly, spit, spit....
How to get the taste out of my mouth?
The problem was the taste of the milk which killed any pleasing taste of coffee.
Barista kills coffee is right.

I hate UHT milk!! GAAAAAA!

Chinese whole milk is watered down, and god knows what else they do to it. Gaaaaa!

How do I know Chinese milk is watered down?? I noticed that when I got to Jakarta, the milk looks like and tastes almost like Half n Half (Half cream have milk). I can finally have cereal (which is also not expensive) in the morning (well afternoon) and good coffee, not to mention the coffee here is great.

Many of the better coffee joints in Shanghai use a trade-only brand of milk which has higher fat content than supermarket crap. I tried to buy a 2-litre tetra-pak off one shop - they wouldn't sell it to me.

Normal milk here is very difficult to produce microfoam from.

Part of the problem with the milk is that they don't remove the melamine before the put it in the coffee.

Yeah, forget about local milk, you can't froth it, need to buy UHT unfortunately, president semi-skimmed works pretty well, or something similar..

I was convinced something was wrong with my espresso machine until I gave up trying local milk...

I'd actually still like to do an afternoon training course or something, there are some things you just can't pick up from the web, like whether I'm grinding the coffee to the right sized powder, whether I'm putting enough pressure when I tamp down the coffee etc..

At least I'm getting pretty consistent these days though ((but still tasting like kak)), I blame it on the milk, or something..

Thanks for the link tihZ-hO but I kind of stopped updating my blog, I should get round to editing my signature....

I helped a friend open a coffee shop in Berkeley back in the 80s, so really did get training. He did swear the milk was the key to a good cap or latte, though of course the coffee and machine matter too. But I'm not surprised folks struggle with milk here.

While the cream content is off, I actually like the taste of most milk here better than I did in Melbourne (I'm from the US originally and most Aussie milk tasted funny)

yikes, I've been chewing on instant for the last three years. although, I sometimes have a Vietnamese coffee with the condensed milk....

boywonder wrote:Yeah, forget about local milk, you can't froth it, need to buy UHT unfortunately, president semi-skimmed works pretty well, or something similar..

I was convinced something was wrong with my espresso machine until I gave up trying local milk...

I'd actually still like to do an afternoon training course or something, there are some things you just can't pick up from the web, like whether I'm grinding the coffee to the right sized powder, whether I'm putting enough pressure when I tamp down the coffee etc..

At least I'm getting pretty consistent these days though ((but still tasting like kak)), I blame it on the milk, or something..

Thanks for the link tihZ-hO but I kind of stopped updating my blog, I should get round to editing my signature....

You're welcome...

Yup the milk (if that is indeed what it is) is rather gruesome in China. Maybe its blended milk byproducts collected by Chinese on binned bicycles and later treated and packaged as 100% milk?


If Chinese had no problem lacing baby formula with melamine, what do they do to the milk, which they don't even drink (because its only for babies)?? Most Chinese believe laowai are so strange to drink milk, correct?

I don't for a minute accept Chinese organic food from Chinese suppliers are pure and natural, as many members here can attest to. However many expats here do, and defend Chinese organic food suppliers while at the same time accepting the "This Is China Face Palm" for all the other shlt they see such as faked QA ISO registration, Social Responsibility Audits and so on and so forth. We all know Chinese are magicians when it comes to hiding what is really going on.

Note however, I am not suggesting the expat owned and operated food suppliers are in the same league, just the 'honest' Chinese suppliers.

boywonder wrote:Yeah, forget about local milk, you can't froth it, need to buy UHT unfortunately, president semi-skimmed works pretty well, or something similar..

I was convinced something was wrong with my espresso machine until I gave up trying local milk...

I'd actually still like to do an afternoon training course or something, there are some things you just can't pick up from the web, like whether I'm grinding the coffee to the right sized powder, whether I'm putting enough pressure when I tamp down the coffee etc..

At least I'm getting pretty consistent these days though ((but still tasting like kak)), I blame it on the milk, or something..

Thanks for the link tihZ-hO but I kind of stopped updating my blog, I should get round to editing my signature....

You can find out all those things from the 'net. They've been discussed to death at http://www.coffeegeek.com. If your coffee tastes bad, a few possibilities include:

1) Your beans not be good quality, or may simply be stale - too long out of the roaster. If they were roasted more than ~ 10 days before you grind, the quality of the espresso goes downhill fast. There are notable exceptions - I got some Mokito Verde in Shanghai at a food exhibition. The valve bag had been opened and I wasn't willing to use it for espresso, but I ran out 6 weeks later and tried it out of desperation. It's the only "old" roast I've ever got decent coffee from. If I could buy it now, I would, but I can't find a local supplier.

2) Your espresso machine may be brewing either too hot or too cold. You can tell by the taste of the espresso. Technique may be able to often overcome this depending on your machine. If it's a single boiler machine, water temperature is a very likely culprit.

3) Your grind could be wrong, or your grinder may not be good enough for espresso. I've had 4 grinders. I started out with a Saeco. Moved up to a Rancilio Rocky. Moved up again to a Macap M4, and finally to a La Cimbali Max Hybrid. Each step up was both a step up in cost, and a big step up in espresso quality. The biggest improvement was going from the Macap to the La Cimbali. Big, expensive grinders make by far the best and most consistent espresso. With what I know now, I think I could consistently produce top of the market espresso with a $600 espresso machine using my La Cimbali grinder.

There is a myriad of other possibilities, but these are the most likely.

One more thought - a very knowledgeable espresso hound I know blends freeze-dried milk powder with his milk. It makes it froth better. Now, that is NOT powdered milk. It is different, and I have no idea where to get it in Shanghai. I bought some and tried it, and sure enough, it gives skim milk the mouth-feel of whole milk. Personally, I found my local Canadian milk to be quite easy to froth, so after trying the freeze-dried, I didn't continue. But my friend still says his local milk (US mid-west) needs the extra protein to froth well.

Hmm, thanks for that, some good stuff there, maybe I need to spend some more time on coffee geeks.

The main problem I get is that the espresso doesn't seem to taste strong, it's weak, my lattes end up tasting like hot milk. I think I'm getting the grind fine enough, if I go finer I basically bung up the machine and it can't push anything out. Also I'm using freshly roasted beans from V - Coffee.

For equipment I have a WPM grinder which is a copy of the Rancilio Rocky (if I remember correctly, I saw it recommended on a forum somewhere, but can't find it now) and a Gee espresso machine, which also had decent reviews.

Yeah, temperature could be an issue, I'll have to take a look at that, maybe I brew too quickly sometimes once it's up to temp.

I've never seen freeze dried milk powder before but that definitely sounds interesting!

Sounds like you know what you're doing! I don't suppose you'd fancy running a one-off training session for board members?? there could be a few beers in it!!!

My Father used to be a barrister, then when he divorced my mother she became a sollicter on our street!
SHAMELESS!!

disconbobulated wrote:My Father used to be a barrister, then when he divorced my mother she became a sollicter on our street!
SHAMELESS!!

absolutely fascinating.

boywonder wrote:Hmm, thanks for that, some good stuff there, maybe I need to spend some more time on coffee geeks.

The main problem I get is that the espresso doesn't seem to taste strong, it's weak, my lattes end up tasting like hot milk. I think I'm getting the grind fine enough, if I go finer I basically bung up the machine and it can't push anything out. Also I'm using freshly roasted beans from V - Coffee.

For equipment I have a WPM grinder which is a copy of the Rancilio Rocky (if I remember correctly, I saw it recommended on a forum somewhere, but can't find it now) and a Gee espresso machine, which also had decent reviews.

Yeah, temperature could be an issue, I'll have to take a look at that, maybe I brew too quickly sometimes once it's up to temp.

I've never seen freeze dried milk powder before but that definitely sounds interesting!

Sounds like you know what you're doing! I don't suppose you'd fancy running a one-off training session for board members?? there could be a few beers in it!!!

Grind, dose and tamp are three important inter-related variables.

Start with a dose of 14 - 16 grams of ground coffee for a double basket.

Distribute it evenly in the basket and tamp to 20 - 30 lb.

Pull the shot, and measure time and shot volume.

If all the factors are right, you should get 1.5 - 2 oz in 25 to 30 seconds.

I practiced weighing doses for quite a while until I could eyeball it quite well. Some people even practice tamping pressure - I never went that far. Anyway, with the right grinder dialled in correctly, you can tamp at 5 lb and get great shots consistently. The grind is far more important than the tamp, although with lower quality grinders, you may have to make up for a lack of grind adjustability with tamp pressure. The Rancilio Rocky is one that doesn't have infinitely variable grind settings. It has 50 (IIRC) settings, but sometimes 7 is too fine and 8 too coarse. You can make up for that partly with tamp pressure, but it's just better to have a really good grinder.

If 1.5 - 2 oz in 25 to 30 seconds is not what you get, experiment with grind so that your 14 - 16 gram dose yields 1.5 to 2 oz. in 25 to 30 seconds.

The crema should be red-brown, not too dark, and not a paler tan colour. Perhaps it will have darker "flecks" in it (tiger flecks"). This is a well-pulled shot.

Practice until you get it right.

If your coffee still seems weak, it may be that your ratio of coffee to milk is too low. A classic cappuccino is 1:3 coffee to milk; latte is 1:4 coffee to milk. Personally, I don't care about the name - what I want is the ratio that pleases my palate, which is somewhere between the two.

If you have your dose, grind, tamp, time and volume right, and your ratio of coffee:milk right, and it still tastes weak, it's the coffee.

I'm not in Shanghai right now, and don't have a machine in Shanghai anyway. But if you're still around when I'm back next, I'd be happy to get together for an espresso session.

disconbobulated wrote:So is your avatar. Did you get beat as a child? Its just your face.....its one of those you just want to beat on!

Phil? Is that you?

Nice mug shot Rabbit