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Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

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Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby one11 » Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:58 pm

Hi,

I am considering moving a back office support office from another country to China. The staff are simply to perform back office related functions and deal with foreign customer support enquiries (email/phone) in relation to a business in the West.

Whilst it would be nice to have in Shanghai, the salary cost would need to be higher than other cities. Whilst I could find cheap staff in a very rural area, it would be hard to find good english speaking staff. So I am looking for suggestions on which city would be best to be able to easily find good english speaking staff at a low/reasonable salary? Someone has suggested to me Chengdu which I will look into. Any other suggested cities?
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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby drunk » Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:10 pm

You are on the right way ! In Shanghai lives crowds of English teachers so .. WELCOME !
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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby aLeGna » Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:22 pm

Does it have to be in China? You can try other countries like the Philippines or India.
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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby one11 » Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:38 pm

aLeGna wrote:Does it have to be in China? You can try other countries like the Philippines or India.


India is not suitable. I have experience from similar operations in Philippines & another country, but I do see many advantages in China. Apart from the advantages another thing is that the majority of our staff in Australia are chinese.

Before moving the office to China, I would carefully consider many things. My question though is which city would be most suitable in China?
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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby aLeGna » Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:48 pm

I think it's quite difficult to say, at least for me since I do not have information on which city in China has more good English-speaking Chinese. I also assume that even those graduates from other cities (tier 2 or 3 perhaps) who have good English skills are likely to come to bigger cities like Shanghai and Beijing where they can add their English skills to their bargaining power (higher salary).

Bottom line: you get what you pay for.
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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby KalanStar » Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:39 pm

Shanghai is not expensive once you get awawy from downtown. if you want good cheap English speaking staff (3000rmb/month), I suggest relocating to SongJiang New City where the rents are very cheap and their are tons of recent grads from the many universities looking for work.
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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby yamari » Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:22 pm

I hope you are not trying to cheap out on people. Why not set up win win situations where if they help you make money you share the profits. I hate companies that just try to get the cheapest staff and pay them dirt wages. I have no idea if that is what you meant by your post, but this country sure needs to put some incentive type packages together so people have a chance to earn some better wages. I really hate the cheap mentality.
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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby KalanStar » Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:40 pm

^^If labor wasn't cheap in China, there'd be no foreign companies here, no jobs, and no 10% growth per year modernizing the country. It'd be like the 1970's Maoville that access to cheap labor has left behind. If Chinese wages continue to rise, the entire economy will crash and burn. So be careful what you wish for! BTW, the lowest wages are paid by Chinese companies, not foreign ones... so, ever here the saying, "the pot calling the kettle black"???
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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby drunk » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:25 am

one11 wrote:India is not suitable.


If India with $100's median income is not suitable - probably China with $200-$300/m will not work too.

Dude, maybe you should try yourself, work for $50/m ? In same case PM me .. :lol: i need somebody for brings me beer, etc..
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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby one11 » Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:24 am

KalanStar wrote:Shanghai is not expensive once you get awawy from downtown. if you want good cheap English speaking staff (3000rmb/month), I suggest relocating to SongJiang New City where the rents are very cheap and their are tons of recent grads from the many universities looking for work.


Thanks for the suggestion. I will look into this.

drunk wrote:
one11 wrote:India is not suitable.

If India with $100's median income is not suitable - probably China with $200-$300/m will not work too.
...


India is not suitable for a number of reasons before considering salary. For example, the Indian accent is disliked by a much larger percentage of the Australian population than other asian accents.

I am not trying to find somewhere with the cheapest wage. I am trying to find somewhere with reasonable value salaries that reflect China's salaries - not somewhere that reflect foreign or big city wages.
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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby rickettyrabbit » Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:15 am

I can't suggest which city would be best, but I suggest you avoid cities in which Cantonese is the common household language. Native Cantonese speakers have more difficulty pronouncing common sounds in English than native Mandarin speakers. Cantonese-accented English is less pleasing to native English ears than Mandarin-accented English.

I've dealt with companies that moved their tech support offshore, and I have to tell you that I no longer do business with some of these companies. Perhaps it's a training problem, or perhaps the working conditions are shzt, but I've found most offshore back office and tech support staff are more interested in "successfully closing" the call rather than actually fixing the customer's problem.

Keep in mind that the general state of "customer service" in China is a lot worse than in many Western countries. You can't blame new hires for not knowing a damned thing about how a customer should be treated when they've rarely experienced good customer service themselves.

It's also possible that you may lose more customers through bad "service experiences", and the reduction in costs you expect may be more than offset by reductions in your revenues.
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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby carolina2aus » Wed Sep 08, 2010 6:15 am

one11 wrote:India is not suitable for a number of reasons before considering salary. For example, the Indian accent is disliked by a much larger percentage of the Australian population than other asian accents.

He he he, the pot's calling the kettle black :)

I don't have much experience with the Indian accent. But being originally from the US and lived in Aus for many years, I found the Aussie accent very dreadful. Listening to Australians is a torture to the eardrums. Sydney and Adelaide are a bit better, but Melbourne and Victoria are terrible.
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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby Shinbone » Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:42 pm

Perhaps he was referring to Australia's Chinese population?

I agree with RicketyRabbit, you get what you pay for, and cheap outlay for negative value return is not good business. Chinese customer service is generally atrocious - the customer is always wrong. "The customer is god" is just offensive lip service rubbish that goes to show how little the word "god" actually means to them.
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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby carolina2aus » Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:28 pm

Customer service is not uniform throughout the West either. Some western countries are far better than others. I'd rate Australia much worse than the US - waiters at restaurants, Qantas flight attendants, you name it - they get downright rude many times down under. So Chinese customer service should suffice for those Australians! Keep the bastards honest as they say in Oz!
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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby yamari » Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:32 pm

yes Qantas has the worst service and is why they are called **** ass airlines. the first word being a bad word for a part of the female anatomy.
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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby Mogen David » Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:49 pm

@ OP, seems like the US is becoming an interesting option to move back outsourced services...
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/0f6d8f76-aa29 ... abdc0.html
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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby carolina2aus » Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:25 pm

yamari wrote:yes Qantas has the worst service and is why they are called **** ass airlines. the first word being a bad word for a part of the female anatomy.

A friend of mine flew Qantas to HK. He asked for something, and the attendant's reply was, "Can't you see that I am busy? I only have 2 hands"! Needless to say, my friend was stunned, he doesn't fly Qantas anymore. This attitude is not just in the airline sector, but prevails everywhere in Aus. Insulting the customer is their main motto.
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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby Shinbone » Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:13 pm

carolina2aus wrote:Customer service is not uniform throughout the West either. Some western countries are far better than others. I'd rate Australia much worse than the US - waiters at restaurants, Qantas flight attendants, you name it - they get downright rude many times down under. So Chinese customer service should suffice for those Australians! Keep the bastards honest as they say in Oz!


I agree, there is little point in discussing how to improve customer service in China. I just hope for China's sake the West doesn't jump off a bridge. I mean, an actual bridge.

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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby nonghagang » Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:54 pm

Why not South Africa? English is the official language there, even an illiterate person can speak fluent English that beats 99.9% uni grads you'll find in China. Plus, with such a high unemployment rate in SA, it's not hard to find someone working for you.
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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby leshkos » Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:05 pm

nonghagang wrote:Why not South Africa? English is the official language there, even an illiterate person can speak fluent English that beats 99.9% uni grads you'll find in China.



Especially in Nigeria(Lagos or Ibadan), there is reliable source about: http://www.ebolamonkeyman.com/
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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby beenaroundworld » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:44 am

nonghagang wrote:Why not South Africa? English is the official language there, even an illiterate person can speak fluent English that beats 99.9% uni grads you'll find in China. Plus, with such a high unemployment rate in SA, it's not hard to find someone working for you.

Illiterate person speaks fluent English? Pleez! Don't give me that C-R-A-P.

I strongly disagree with the notion that "just because English is someone's native language, they can speak English very well".

Growing up with a language is just ONE component in achieving fluency. There are several other factors at play, such as intelligence, grasping power, etc. -- And don't give me all that bulshit about "native this" and "native that" -- all those so-called "native" stuff can be picked up quickly, very easily, no big deal. And anyway, the native stuff is just "native" to ONE country or a small region. For example, the British say "you have leave to enter the country" - here, leave means permission! No american will understand this - go figure!

Can South Africans or New Zealanders understand all the subtleties and nuances in Canadian English? No, not unless they get up from their asses and make an effort!

Sure, even a stupid native speaker will talk fast -- but it's just fast crap, fast gibberish, unable to express clearly what he's thinking. They'll keep mixing up "their" and "there" - "know" and "No", they'll screw up the sentence structure - they'll screw up every rule of grammar in the language.

A top student from a top university in Japan or Korea or Hungary will be much better at EVERY aspect of English than an average student at a mediocre university in the US or Canada or UK. Just like some foreigners can speak much better Mandarin than someone at a mediocre Chinese university. To emphasize: Born and growing up with a language is just ONE of several factors to achieve mastery - it just makes things easier, nothing more.

Having said all that, for just a call center customer rep, your average native Joe SixPack will do :-)
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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby Shinbone » Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:19 pm

"You have leave" is common in American English, guv. But what I don't understand is when a British person says he's been "fag-free" for a month! :D

Aside from idiomatic differences, which really don't belong in an international communication environment, business communication requires confidence and active participation, not passive perfectionism displayed by "expert students". Less well-educated native speakers are going to not only be readier to communicate, not having the self-doubts about being understood, but their listening comprehension (across dialects) is going to be far more facile. The whole thing is arguable of course, like whether it's better for employees to have education or experience; and you make a good point; but experience has taught me that top students tend to overestimate their abilities and underestimate their comprehension errors of - not idiomatic choices, but stylistic inferences.

"Your accent is good enough for us."
"Oh? I am relieved you think so. Thank you."
"You're welcome."

"My name is Yvonne." (Yah-von, not Ee-von).
"Are you sure?"
"Are you?"

Swish, right over the head.

It's been my experience that Chinese speakers of English are generally terrified passive spitballers. Rote perfectionists afraid to utter a syllable, because they will certainly make mistakes,and all people who make errors are to be ripped to shreds. This is why inaction and silence is generally the preferred course of action in a Chinese organization. Not all speakers, of course, but they do tend to talk "at" people instead of "to" them. The problem being, of course, overstudy of linguistics and a total neglect of actual use. Sixteen years of English study and the first thing they say is "How! Are! You! Sorry my English."

But more salient to the issue of a Chinese call center would be the cultural tendency towards the business organization being the authority, and the customer being the interruption. The revolving door, cash economy, "Meiyou" culture in which customers need their concerns reframed for their benefits and the provider to do as little as actually possible. Not to mention the absolute dearth of problem-solving capability generalized through the culture. Some things cannot be trained. For example, the will to head off problems before they begin, let alone ability to perceive them. You don't steer the boat, you hit the other boat and then correct.

To put it in a nutshell: Chinese use commands, not requests, and this is customer service death.

But if it's just a simple, cheap solution why not? The business can display the illusion of concern for customers without setting up actual value-adding processes. Yeah, that won't be costlier at all when practices like value-negating "customer service charades" become the norm. Kind of like fake (white) ministers at an Asian "western-style" wedding. The whole thing becomes a farce, and people either live a crappier life of false delusion and banal consumption, become cynical, or start supporting authentic alternatives to manufactured culture. Fake value-added services are going to be costlier in the long run for all businesses. A company may have a customer service hotline located overseas, but instead of generating the reassurance value of a genuine customer connection, the opposite perception is enforced: a corporate frankenstein.

:mrgreen:
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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby nonghagang » Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:15 pm

beenaroundworld wrote:
nonghagang wrote:Why not South Africa? English is the official language there, even an illiterate person can speak fluent English that beats 99.9% uni grads you'll find in China. Plus, with such a high unemployment rate in SA, it's not hard to find someone working for you.

Illiterate person speaks fluent English? Pleez! Don't give me that C-R-A-P.

I strongly disagree with the notion that "just because English is someone's native language, they can speak English very well".

Growing up with a language is just ONE component in achieving fluency. There are several other factors at play, such as intelligence, grasping power, etc. -- And don't give me all that bulshit about "native this" and "native that" -- all those so-called "native" stuff can be picked up quickly, very easily, no big deal. And anyway, the native stuff is just "native" to ONE country or a small region. For example, the British say "you have leave to enter the country" - here, leave means permission! No american will understand this - go figure!

Can South Africans or New Zealanders understand all the subtleties and nuances in Canadian English? No, not unless they get up from their asses and make an effort!

Sure, even a stupid native speaker will talk fast -- but it's just fast crap, fast gibberish, unable to express clearly what he's thinking. They'll keep mixing up "their" and "there" - "know" and "No", they'll screw up the sentence structure - they'll screw up every rule of grammar in the language.

A top student from a top university in Japan or Korea or Hungary will be much better at EVERY aspect of English than an average student at a mediocre university in the US or Canada or UK. Just like some foreigners can speak much better Mandarin than someone at a mediocre Chinese university. To emphasize: Born and growing up with a language is just ONE of several factors to achieve mastery - it just makes things easier, nothing more.



Gee..seriously dude, you need to relax..Did I say" just because English is someone's native language, they can speak English very well ?", I'm merely offering a suggestion. The OP is looking for cheap labor not rocket science engineer,and a top student from a top university in Japan or Korea or Hungary will NOT work in a call center while being paid lousy wages...
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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby beenaroundworld » Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:34 pm

nonghagang wrote:
beenaroundworld wrote:
nonghagang wrote:Why not South Africa? English is the official language there, even an illiterate person can speak fluent English that beats 99.9% uni grads you'll find in China. Plus, with such a high unemployment rate in SA, it's not hard to find someone working for you.

Illiterate person speaks fluent English? Pleez! Don't give me that C-R-A-P.

I strongly disagree with the notion that "just because English is someone's native language, they can speak English very well".

Growing up with a language is just ONE component in achieving fluency. There are several other factors at play, such as intelligence, grasping power, etc. -- And don't give me all that bulshit about "native this" and "native that" -- all those so-called "native" stuff can be picked up quickly, very easily, no big deal. And anyway, the native stuff is just "native" to ONE country or a small region. For example, the British say "you have leave to enter the country" - here, leave means permission! No american will understand this - go figure!

Can South Africans or New Zealanders understand all the subtleties and nuances in Canadian English? No, not unless they get up from their asses and make an effort!

Sure, even a stupid native speaker will talk fast -- but it's just fast crap, fast gibberish, unable to express clearly what he's thinking. They'll keep mixing up "their" and "there" - "know" and "No", they'll screw up the sentence structure - they'll screw up every rule of grammar in the language.

A top student from a top university in Japan or Korea or Hungary will be much better at EVERY aspect of English than an average student at a mediocre university in the US or Canada or UK. Just like some foreigners can speak much better Mandarin than someone at a mediocre Chinese university. To emphasize: Born and growing up with a language is just ONE of several factors to achieve mastery - it just makes things easier, nothing more.



Gee..seriously dude, you need to relax..Did I say" just because English is someone's native language, they can speak English very well ?", I'm merely offering a suggestion. The OP is looking for cheap labor not rocket science engineer,and a top student from a top university in Japan or Korea or Hungary will NOT work in a call center while being paid lousy wages...

I already said that before in my last sentence (Having said all that, for just a call center customer rep, your average native Joe SixPack will do :-)), which you conveniently left out :P

Anyway, what I wrote before was general stuff -- NOT in response to you! So YOU need to relax and take it easy :-)
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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby beenaroundworld » Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:54 pm

Shinbone wrote:Not all speakers, of course, but they do tend to talk "at" people instead of "to" them. The problem being, of course, overstudy of linguistics and a total neglect of actual use. Sixteen years of English study and the first thing they say is "How! Are! You! Sorry my English."

Sixteen years of English and still struggling with the first sentence??

But more salient to the issue of a Chinese call center would be the cultural tendency towards the business organization being the authority, and the customer being the interruption. The revolving door, cash economy, "Meiyou" culture in which customers need their concerns reframed for their benefits and the provider to do as little as actually possible. Not to mention the absolute dearth of problem-solving capability generalized through the culture. Some things cannot be trained. For example, the will to head off problems before they begin, let alone ability to perceive them. You don't steer the boat, you hit the other boat and then correct.

All true.

This reminds me. Just the other day, we went to a "good" restaurant. We asked for dish 1, meiyou! dish 2, meiyou! And after several meiyou's, we finally got a "you" -- wonder how they run businesses here with such culture.
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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby one11 » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:16 pm

Hi everyone,

Thanks for your discussions about offshoring/nearshoring in general. I am aware of the problems with offshoring and the generally lower service level that it provides. However for the businses I am involved in, we are happy to give average service to general customers - as the business we are involved is a very price sensitive business.

The country that we currently have staff from is an even more less developed country than China so whilst China service may not be great, it won't be much different (or it may be better) than what we use now.

Regarding the South Africa suggestion: we are looking for locations that have a time zone not to different to Australia which includes most asian countries.

Anyway, getting back to the topic, if anyone wants to suggest any China specific cities that would be great.
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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby leshkos » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:19 pm

one11 wrote:Anyway, getting back to the topic, if anyone wants to suggest any China specific cities that would be great.


Try in Henan.
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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby tihZ_hO » Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:13 am

one11 wrote:Hi,

I am considering moving a back office support office from another country to China. The staff are simply to perform back office related functions and deal with foreign customer support enquiries (email/phone) in relation to a business in the West.

Whilst it would be nice to have in Shanghai, the salary cost would need to be higher than other cities. Whilst I could find cheap staff in a very rural area, it would be hard to find good english speaking staff. So I am looking for suggestions on which city would be best to be able to easily find good english speaking staff at a low/reasonable salary? Someone has suggested to me Chengdu which I will look into. Any other suggested cities?


You mean in China?

(snort, snicker . . . )

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA



Just . . .

a moment . . .

catch my breath . . . .

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh boy! :lol:

Get the idea??

One of my last gigs was running an American factory in Shanghai and ALL of my office staff were CET BAND 4 and 6 which is a certificate of low to high intermediate English but only two could actually put a few words of English together!! This is NOT an exaggeration, many expat bars and restaurants are forced to employ Filipinos simply because they CAN speak and understand English. :wink:

You will be just one of the many foreign companies coming out to China who will in a short time be thinking WTF?

It is what it is

PS: A very famous Chinese expression is: High Score Low Ability

This means while Chinese are able to pass tests it is not an indication they actually know anything.

You will find this out!
Image





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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby carolina2aus » Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:20 am

The hopeless state of Chinese education is well documented here (inclluding the infamous gaokao, the college entrance exam): http://www.shanghaiexpat.com/phpbbforum/china-s-college-entry-test-is-an-obsession-t94315-25.html

Having said that, is Australia better than China? Just a tiny bit. I'd much rather hire an American or a Euro graduate than an Australian graduate. Any day. They have mines, but no brains. And sit on their asses all day collecting dole.

A very famous Chinese expression is: High Score Low Ability

Also true in Oz.
Oz university education is a joke.
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Re: Which city? Cheap good english speaking staff?

Postby Adrienne » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:21 am

Let's just move past the Australia bashing can we children and get back to the OP's original question. Every country has their positive and negative points and this self-serving grandeous bashing of one nationality by another grows so tiresome and takes the whole conversation away from the original question. :roll:

My two bob's worth on this would be to encourage the OP to look a lot deeper into the different countries within the Australia time zone and then see who is doing what successfully and where it is being done. No need to re-invent the wheel.

I think the past point about Cantonese is valid but would also like to add that you can get good English speakers all over this vast land who are just born with this skill set. I have met boys from farms who are A+ students in English but their upbringing is really basic so their cultural understanding is quite limited.
I think language is only half of the issue here. I would be very reluctant to employ them in my company because they don't have the kind of exposure to the west and understanding of westerners that we need.

When you think about saving costs by employing cheaper English staff you need to factor in the enormous amount of time and money that you will have to spend not only in training but also SUPERVISING and PROBLEM SOLVING and CRISIS MANAGEMENT when things go wrong which without doubt THEY WILL.

You have to understand alot about the history and the culture of a country that you plan to bring into your business environment. The road is littered with failed businesses who have not researched thoroughly. If you choose China I would suggest you spend at least 3-6 months in China before you start to get them involved in your business and look, listen and learn.

The Australia China Business Council is good place to start as is Austrade. There are also loads of books around that I think are worth reading. Just google for some good reviews.

Hope this helps a little and all the very best.

Adrienne
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