The Netherlands, by far. Followed by Australia. Then, a big void.

Neville_Bartos wrote:^^Well said. Especially this...

Social skills, languages, intuitive logical thinking is where future generations can distinguish themselves from others, not rote memorisation.

Now, if only our educational systems can handle this...how much of social skills, languages and intuitive logical thinking is require to get the basic Bachelor's degree, even in the States?

StMichael wrote:

Neville_Bartos wrote:^^Well said. Especially this...

Social skills, languages, intuitive logical thinking is where future generations can distinguish themselves from others, not rote memorisation.

Now, if only our educational systems can handle this...how much of social skills, languages and intuitive logical thinking is require to get the basic Bachelor's degree, even in the States?

Not sure... but last I checked 50%+ of uni grads in China are unemployed after graduation, 1 in 8 will never have a job, and most don't work in their fields of study... Epic Fail!
white-collar-workers-are-china-s-newest-underclass-t114581.html
http://www.newsweek.com/photo/2010/06/1 ... rkers.html
http://www.newsweek.com/2010/06/19/smar ... broke.html

As far as practical skills go, like "thinking", Chinese grads are fairly poor... I guess years of multiple choice and memorizing the right answer don't go far in the real world.

KalanStar wrote:Not sure... but last I checked 50%+ of uni grads in China are unemployed after graduation, 1 in 8 will never have a job, and most don't work in their fields of study... Epic Fail!

This is what happens when there are more graduates chasing graduates jobs than there are jobs. In a country as undeveloped as China, when they open up the field to more college graduates, you get such a situation. Epic fail in the part of Chinese thinking, indeed.

As far as practical skills go, like "thinking", Chinese grads are fair very poor... I guess years of multiple choice and memorizing the right answer don't go far in the real world.

I get what you mean. Many of my friends are tearing out their hair over their Chinese staff.

Rote memorisation based education systems result in a lower ceiling in the workplace for the students being churned out. How far can one go if they don't have the social skills to manage and deal with clients?

You see it all to often. So called 'star uni grads' from the top universities coming in, knowing it all and demonstrating a complete inability to function in a normal social work setting and deal with important people to getting their job done. The ability to effectively deal and work with other human beings is of a fundamental importance.

leidelaohu wrote:

Neville_Bartos wrote:You see it all to often. So called 'star uni grads' from the top universities coming in, knowing it all and demonstrating a complete inability to function in a normal social work setting and deal with important people to getting their job done. The ability to effectively deal and work with other human beings is of a fundamental importance.

Totally. Except for one thing - foreigners these days are almost as bad. Give the US another ten years and we'll be as flocked up as China. I sure hope someone somewhere is developing human beings with a little common sense, 'cuz it ain't us.

Yep I agree. Many English education systems are reverting back to the 'teach to the test' ideology. The worst part is when governments change legislation that clearly benefits this approach but claim 'openess in education' or 'getting back to basics.'

Complete and utter rubbish.

School was not set up to teach children to think, it was/is in the service of industry, to produce literate and numerate people.
School provides organised child minding while it creates basically literate and numerate generations to eventually work in some industry/occupation/oganisation.
School is set up to teach children to follow directions and to be led, a teacher in this case and later the manager.

*When I say school I mean from primary to tertiary.

Teaching to the test is perfect for industry. It helps people to be able to mindlessly follow organisational protocols.

anter wrote:School was not set up to teach children to think, it was/is in the service of industry, to produce literate and numerate people.
School provides organised child minding while it creates basically literate and numerate generations to eventually work in some industry/occupation/oganisation.
School is set up to teach children to follow directions and to be led, a teacher in this case and later the manager.

*When I say school I mean from primary to tertiary.

Teaching to the test is perfect for industry. It helps people to be able to mindlessly follow organisational protocols.

Much as I, as an educator myself, wish what you said were not true, we see it all too often, especially back in our home country. Many of us educators still have dreams of what education should be like, and in international schools here, we are able to "deviate" from this social engineering stuff somewhat. Only somewhat, though.

I think the "education system" around the world is fundamentally flawed as it does not address the fact that different people have different rates of coming to full "intelligence", thereby judging all children on the same yardstick. Such measurement is good for those who reaches that point of full intelligence early but punishes, sometimes for life, those who "wake up" later.

Anyways, in this mess, I would still prefer the education system in Singapore versus China.

I recently had a chat with an engineering professor from a western country. He said that students these days want to study "fad" courses such as Sustainability, or Environmental Management, or International Trade - they do NOT want to do the HARD sciences such as Fluid Dynamics or Solid Mechanics.

In other words, western students are getting lazy (at least the ones from that country) - they want to follow buzzwords such as Sustainability and Management. And this, at a time when machines are replaciing human beings everywhere! When our machines break down, who's going to repair them? Some moron who has only studied Sustainability and Supply Chain? And who's going to design and develop new machines?

beenaroundworld wrote:I recently had a chat with an engineering professor from a western country. He said that students these days want to study "fad" courses such as Sustainability, or Environmental Management, or International Trade - they do NOT want to do the HARD sciences such as Fluid Dynamics or Solid Mechanics.

In other words, western students are getting lazy (at least the ones from that country) - they want to follow buzzwords such as Sustainability and Management. And this, at a time when machines are replaciing human beings everywhere! When our machines break down, who's going to repair them? Some moron who has only studied Sustainability and Supply Chain? And who's going to design and develop new machines?

how can you begin to address 21st-century "fad" issues without a foundation in the base sciences? duh. it's madness. all of those 40-somethings and beyond who've been laid off will make a comback before too long. as consultants to the airheads who only have ideas and no science to support them. they'll come up with some new catchphrase for the older people who had proper schooling back in the day, like "classicists." except that word'll be too hard to say, so they'll be called "classics" for short.

"yeah, we're hiring a coupla classics to come in and show us how this damned thing works."

when the word "classics" arrives in this new definition, remember you read it here first.

leidelaohu wrote:

anter wrote:Teaching to the test is perfect for industry. It helps people to be able to mindlessly follow organisational protocols.

Flaw in thy reasoning, Ms Anter People in industry need analytical problem-solving skills. When the bolts don't fit, when the part chatters, when the hydrostatically formed Corvette frame cracks in processing, the guy doing the job has to be able to figure out what's wrong and fix it. "Industry" requires brains. Look at the street names in old Cincinnati, settled by German toolmakers : Goethe, Faust, Wagner ... libraries and valkyries and intellectual pursuits abound(ed). Industry is not for dummies.

It's elsewhere that society wants numbskulls. I'd say banking, finance, insurance, law enforcement, office work. Sales. Purchasing ! MBA's. Journalism ! People sitting on their fat asses determined to be consultants who can't find their butt with both hands. Maybe that's why the powers-what-be are trying to get rid of manufacturing. Industry requires people who can think.

btw, my dad was enthralled with SMSG. He liked taking the less advanced classes for that thrill you get when a football player says, "Oh hey ! I gottit !" The problem was not teaching set theory to the challenged students. The problem was that the parents couldn't understand the homework

The vast majority of jobs seem to require people who mindlessly follow direction from supervisors or handbooks/guidelines for the job. I use the word industry very generically meaning organisations that offer jobs and work in the world today for the most part this type of "industry" is busy work and paperpushing or piece work.

Education systems do push certain high achievers to the top and sets them appart for a track that is upward and towards authority over others, while everyone else is made to be more complient by the systems of education that prevail. Most people end up making the buttons, some pushing buttons and only a few oerdering the button makers and pushers.

It is a problem for me when I go to a service centre and my problem requires someone to think independently of policy and directions and that person just keeps quoting from their training manual rather than thinking for themselves. If people actually thought for themselves then they would not accept the conditions of work nor governments that are are imposed on them. Better have them made complient by the system.

In school there is an overemphasis on literacy and students using symbolic language for nearly all there learning, over and above those things that appear to be play but in reality offer lots of problem solving foundations. So much time is spent on literacy in schools, to the loss of other learning. There is a lack of understanding by educators in schools ES and MS, of skills development in other areas beside literacy/numeracy and companion applications to develop those skills. Far too much faith is placed on knowledge that is neither skill based nor able to be used in an applied way.

sambista wrote:how can you begin to address 21st-century "fad" issues without a foundation in the base sciences? duh. it's madness. all of those 40-somethings and beyond who've been laid off will make a comback before too long. as consultants to the airheads who only have ideas and no science to support them. they'll come up with some new catchphrase for the older people who had proper schooling back in the day, like "classicists." except that word'll be too hard to say, so they'll be called "classics" for short.

"yeah, we're hiring a coupla classics to come in and show us how this damned thing works."

when the word "classics" arrives in this new definition, remember you read it here first.

An ideal degree program in science/engineering would contain mostly the hard-core technical stuff. But in the final semester, just before they graduate, they should be taught a little bit of the soft skills, such as dealing with people, solving problems "on the spot", independent thinking, etc...

leidelaohu wrote:Totally. Except for one thing - foreigners these days are almost as bad. Give the US another ten years and we'll be as flocked up as China. I sure hope someone somewhere is developing human beings with a little common sense, 'cuz it ain't us.

Foreigners or Merkins? Big difference here chap, the Germans are still pretty darn good in engineering, so are the Swiss etc.. The technical high schools actually see a marked increase every year of applications, the days where all the lazy bums just wanted to study sociology are more and more distant. Just a little reality check, your "little" corner of the world does not necessarily represent the rest of us foreigners.
Not surprisingly Germany and Switzerland, despite the formers heavy public debt, are recovering the fastest from the global eco crisis. I feel a lot of you are talking out of their asses, when you say the best is country A then country B and then long nothing... how many education systems do you really know?
No offense, I also never said that memorisation is bad, it's just that pure rote memorisation without putting it into a broader concept is useless. Knowing that Bulgarias capital is Sofia, without knowing the tiniest bit about the country is worth nothing, you can use your smartphone/notebook to figure that one out in 2 seconds if you forgot.

in asia, high school is tough due to the college entrance process. but once you get past that, i hear they can (and many do) coast through college. in the US, it seems it's often the other way around.

As someone who attended colleges, well, universities in both places, I can tell you, this is absolutely true.

pfft wrote: rote learning and amassing knowledge is absolutely useless in todays society.

This is a really popular notion, just not true though. Research shows that you have to achieve certain level
of rote learnign and amassed knowledge before you can excel in pretty much any field. I'd recommend Daniel T. Willingham's excellent Why Don't Students Like School for anyone who's interested in kid's education. It's research based and yet easy to read.

nonghagang wrote:

wo chi shi wrote:my kid will be a mix-breed so i dont know if the usa or china would be best.

Well, I'd say unless you don't mind your kid brain washed by communists every single day while rote learning obsolete and outdated crap, then by all means, send him to US.

BTW, you might consider a change of your user name, seriously..

mmm....sounds like US government never brainwashed people....how pathetic you haven't realised you have already been a political tool of your government and you don't know how to approach the world without your stupid media like CNN, NBC, etc. ; you should understand the US, the whole country, is owned by china.

However, I personally think the university education in China is a total crap in comparison to the US university eduation. Period.

pfft wrote:I'm from Switzerland and would like to think our education system is pretty good, but it requires French/German/Italian fluency to enter school, which is difficult for foreign kids (hence the low reading/literacy score in PISA, more than 22% foreigners in CH) and could impact other skills, as language fluency is the key to effective interaction in every situation, be it social or in school.
So unless the parents are relocating to CH with their kid at an early age and are themselves willing to make a big effort to learn the language(s) I wouldn't recommend Switzerland, as the international schools are pretty comparable internationally I think.. (North Korean dictators wouldn't agree with me here)
I would stay clear of most Asian education systems though, rote learning and amassing knowledge is absolutely useless in todays society, what is true today is wrong tomorrow, all you need to have is a good grasp of the basic mechanisms and interrelations of science and knowledge, and know where to find knowledge you don't have. Being a quick learner is by far superiour to having learnt much, especially if it came with a huge effort. Social skills, languages, intuitive logical thinking is where future generations can distinguish themselves from others, not rote memorisation.

I don't know other countries, but Iadmit the university education system in china is ****, it is ****!!!!! However, have you attended the high school in china?????????????? How can you say it is nothing but rote learning??? The soft skills you mentioned is VERY important but it does not mean you should ignore the brain traing. The high school education in china is more of intelligence competition, not rote learning at all. You can't judge the asian high school education system if you have never attended any. There is a reason why the current european economies has been stagnant.

KalanStar wrote:

StMichael wrote:

Neville_Bartos wrote:^^Well said. Especially this...

Social skills, languages, intuitive logical thinking is where future generations can distinguish themselves from others, not rote memorisation.

Now, if only our educational systems can handle this...how much of social skills, languages and intuitive logical thinking is require to get the basic Bachelor's degree, even in the States?

Not sure... but last I checked 50%+ of uni grads in China are unemployed after graduation, 1 in 8 will never have a job, and most don't work in their fields of study... Epic Fail!
white-collar-workers-are-china-s-newest-underclass-t114581.html
http://www.newsweek.com/photo/2010/06/1 ... rkers.html
http://www.newsweek.com/2010/06/19/smar ... broke.html

As far as practical skills go, like "thinking", Chinese grads are fairly poor... I guess years of multiple choice and memorizing the right answer don't go far in the real world.

It's so unfortunate for you to get stuck in such BIG LOSER country. Why did you come here, why don't you just stay in your country? Your country is too successful to need people like you, right? Do you know your view towards the world is only based on the internet, the newsweek, the cnn, bbc, blah blah blah...what you need to do is to get your butt off the chair and get your eyes off your laptop and get out of the door and look around you and make local friends to get to know what real china is. I have found much less unemployed people surrounding me here in china than the ones I know in Europe!!!

why don't you show people links: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/co ... 419387.htm
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c39f1320-5443 ... z1EZIF6mOj

"Delorme is typical of Europe's Gen Y these days. Most of his friends are also pounding the cobblestones in search of employment—as are about 5 million other young Europeans, or about 20% of the under-25 population, the European Union estimates. That's nearly a third higher than a year ago and well above the 8.9% unemployment rate for the EU as a whole. In some countries the situation is far worse. Nearly 37% of Spain's Gen Yers can't find work. In France, it's 24%, vs. 17% in the U.S"

I have checked your other threads in this forum, it is always about how bad china is! How much you hate people here! How much you even wanna physically fight here!! HAHA, just look at yourself, how ugly you are! Get a life, you are just a little jealous worm.

From personal observation, high school in Shanghai is pretty hardcore by comparison with what I went through as a kid.

When I went to high school back in the States I remember asking Coach Brown the History teacher/Football Coach why he was still teaching that East and West Germany were separate countries and the USSR was still on all the political maps when at that time that was no longer the case.

Coach gave me detention, and a lecture about how we was gonna larn from them textbooks 'cuz they was all we got till the schoolboard decides otherwise.

America, where your budget decides what's true and what isn't. Yeehaw.

I can't believe people opt for the Singaporean school over the American/British school. Your child won't learn to speak English properly (yes, I've seen it first hand). I met a British kid going there who talked (swear to God) like this: 'My fadder and I went to see hiz frenz. Den we went to eat wid my modder.'

beenaroundworld wrote:When Australians say "My kid is in Year 8", they mean that their kid is in the 8th grade!

Or 7th grade, depending on the time of year. Just wanted to clarify this. And in New Zealand, year 8 would mean either grade 6 or grade 7 also depending on the time of year, as the compulsory school age is 5.