ppl here borrowing money to "buy" houses like crazy, companies building poor quality houses without conscience. dont know why shanghai locals just have that type of insane and addictive fever over house issue like nobody else in the world. even ayis in companies can re-educate us real estate spirit like pros, and brag about how rich they'll be by gov's compensation when their creepy houses be tore down in suburb in future.

why so many shanghai ppl(esp shanghai women) r sooo in deeply love with house here? date with house-owned condition, marry for the house only (no romance, no communication, no interests sharing, etc), most hilarious shanghai-exclusive story i have ever heard is the canceling of the wedding we r supposed to attend. the bride-to-be just cancelled her own marriage a few days before wedding coz her hubby to be didnt obey her to put her name in the household certificate, which means the house only owns by her hubby who bought the house, and she's not officially owns the house, in addition, cant get a half of money of selling the house after divorcing him (admire her super power of seeing things in such a long run).

owns a cold house without a real family full of love, renovate a house to make it like a king's castle to show off and gain face but acts like st gangsters with even not hygienic clothes, eat dog's food plus live a beggar's life to pay off debt for the rest of life, one eating out experience or one movie only brings guilty of adding burden to their house debt instead of joy.

what's that all about?

Psychology, historical background, economics, and propaganda.

it's all about image. That real estate brochure they saw with an impossibly white Chinese couple smiling with their (extremely white) one child whilst looking at their (white) Apple laptop in their new (white) apartment. The imagination that having an apartment here gives security (what they pass to the spoilt brat after the 70-year lease runs out I don't know). So after exploding lots of firecrackers outside the front door whilst dressed in white bridal gear, they will lap up 2 years of prestige in their new (not second hand) apartment, until realising that their "friends" have bought a newer, even whiter, and better unit following an even whiter and more glorious wedding. Wife complains then divorces. Because it's all about image, the developers (who are bright HK people) know they only need to stick up a facade with very little underneath to get them to buy into it. "screaming hordes" come to mind.

^ spot on Shangstar

To me Shanghai is one of those cities where you don't want to put roots down too deep. By all means enjoy everything it has to offer... but always be ready to split at anytime. When the bubble bursts here it's not gonna be pretty. This is one city where one is better off renting for the term of one's natural life. Education is a much safer investment

believe it was a lot crazier a few years ago

while the above is not incorrect the 2 main factors are:
1. you can't enroll your child in school unless you own a residence
2. the housing bubble is huge and still growing, and since it's controlled more or less by the government, they believe the bubble won't pop. The apartment cost to salary ratio in downtown Shanghai to within an hour of downtown is ridiculous: unless everyone keeps feeding the bubble. The investment return on apartments in Shanghai is muddied by the number of apartments and the number of low income apartments, whereas apartments near all those new subway lines are still increasing at 50% to 100% per year during construction and for the first 3 years after construction.

This is not just a Shanghai phenomenon. It's all about the "security" owning a house offers. North Americans are just as insane about owning a house, so much so that they get a mortgage beyond their means and a house too big for their family size. As a result the mortgage crisis happened. It's going to get ugly when the mortgage crisis happens here.

Most interest thing for me is knowing date of DAY X , when this card's home will folded (prices and sky will fall).

In Chinese culture, owning a home (even its on mortgage) gives one the secure feeling of "established".
Also, with real estate in the past 10 yrs, people think it's an easy way to make money instead fo 9-5 work, so even if they do not need one to live in, they buy one and hope to "flip" for profits quickly.

revolution9 wrote:^ spot on Shangstar

To me Shanghai is one of those cities where you don't want to put roots down too deep. By all means enjoy everything it has to offer... but always be ready to split at anytime. When the bubble bursts here it's not gonna be pretty. This is one city where one is better off renting for the term of one's natural life. Education is a much safer investment

yea.

fWerrF wrote:Also, with real estate in the past 10 yrs, people think it's an easy way to make money

My former landlord, who is now selling his (my) apartment tells me he bought it 5 years ago for 1 million rmb. He's selling it for 5 million. Nice work if you can get it!

fWerrF wrote:In Chinese culture, owning a home (even its on mortgage) gives one the secure feeling of "established".
Also, with real estate in the past 10 yrs, people think it's an easy way to make money instead fo 9-5 work, so even if they do not need one to live in, they buy one and hope to "flip" for profits quickly.

i bet in many cultures or places, it would not be a weird thing to own a house for settling down once a family built. all im saying is shanghai locals' esp shanghai women's way of exchanging their youth/body/marriage/romance/self-esteem for house is insane, but they still feel cool even proud of it.

there are so gigantic discrepancy between east and west ,city and country. so all ppl of china want to live in shanghai ,Beijing... these demands elevate the property price. so apartment in big city become one of the most exiguous resource, having a nice apartment become the dream of locals. buying a apartment is to read a dream.

Shangstar wrote:it's all about image. That real estate brochure they saw with an impossibly white Chinese couple smiling with their (extremely white) one child whilst looking at their (white) Apple laptop in their new (white) apartment. The imagination that having an apartment here gives security (what they pass to the spoilt brat after the 70-year lease runs out I don't know). So after exploding lots of firecrackers outside the front door whilst dressed in white bridal gear, they will lap up 2 years of prestige in their new (not second hand) apartment, until realising that their "friends" have bought a newer, even whiter, and better unit following an even whiter and more glorious wedding. Wife complains then divorces. Because it's all about image, the developers (who are bright HK people) know they only need to stick up a facade with very little underneath to get them to buy into it. "screaming hordes" come to mind.

Post of the week.

Shangstar wrote:it's all about image. That real estate brochure they saw with an impossibly white Chinese couple smiling with their (extremely white) one child whilst looking at their (white) Apple laptop in their new (white) apartment. The imagination that having an apartment here gives security (what they pass to the spoilt brat after the 70-year lease runs out I don't know). So after exploding lots of firecrackers outside the front door whilst dressed in white bridal gear, they will lap up 2 years of prestige in their new (not second hand) apartment, until realising that their "friends" have bought a newer, even whiter, and better unit following an even whiter and more glorious wedding. Wife complains then divorces. Because it's all about image, the developers (who are bright HK people) know they only need to stick up a facade with very little underneath to get them to buy into it. "screaming hordes" come to mind.

I could not have summarized it that well. Absolutely spot on, great post!

Humac wrote:

fWerrF wrote:Also, with real estate in the past 10 yrs, people think it's an easy way to make money

My former landlord, who is now selling his (my) apartment tells me he bought it 5 years ago for 1 million rmb. He's selling it for 5 million. Nice work if you can get it!

That's the point. Money talk.
It's not Shanghain ppl insane on the house issue. Locals have their own house, but people who want to be resident in Shanghai are so crazy about house buying. But so many people coming cause the rocketing prices, then smart person make money from the real estate (also the other reason for the rising prices). The concept is if you have a house in Shanghai, you are rich, because you are a millionaire at least. On the other hand, women love to marry rich men. Once the marriage works that could be very easy money. They think men are irresponsible. Men always cheat. So, between romantic and money, they all choose money. It's a vicious circle.

Yeah, all the hallmarks of a very immature and infantile society. Which is nothing we did not know yet of course.

^^ it's the image of wealth, not wealth itself they go for. An extended family of 15 people buying a one bedroom 75sqm unit in Shanghai is hardly wealthy, but nobody need know this, so long as it "looks" wealthy. Just like fake watches, elaborate bank busting wedding ceremonies and all that is painted in gold - it just needs to look good, never mind the substance. Why the need to "look" wealthy? It all boils down to one thing that is common in Asia as a whole - as touched upon by Liu Xiang last year, an inferiority complex.

If women choose money over romance, why not get a job?

This whole place is one big fake experience. Now even more than let's say 10 years ago.

Shangstar wrote:If women choose money over romance, why not get a job?

Being a whore is sooo much easier.

inconvenient wrote: i bet in many cultures or places, it would not be a weird thing to own a house for settling down once a family built. all im saying is shanghai locals' esp shanghai women's way of exchanging their youth/body/marriage/romance/self-esteem for house is insane, but they still feel cool even proud of it.

a person on average salary will never afford a roof over their head.
dats why they go nuts and look for the men who got the housing part covered already.

Insecurity.

One of the main reasons why people post threads or believe things like this is because they are either poor or jealous that people have something they don't. It's true that some people need something, or desire something, but I'm sure everyone on this board and this planet has that feeling. Ethiopians have a need to live and eat to survive, Some people need to buy material things to feel good about themselves, Gov. of California needs to pump iron and use drugs to enhance his body so he can feel good about himself, women need to buy shoes/bags to feel good, or get plastic surgery to look better. Students need to get that PHD/Masters/MBA to get a better job. A managerial position is what some employees strive for to feel comfortable and secure in their future.

Seems like some people are in the low rungs of the "food chain" and can't get any higher w/o criticism.

Suck it up, its how some people are. In this society of Shanghai R.E. is one of the major assets to have in order to feel secure in this city, and/or a mindset living here. If you can't adjust to it, find a place where you can adjust, for example, I know a great plot of land in the Mid-West of China that has vegetables ripe ready to be harvested.

Yea I said it. This is where Reality sets in... for some people at least.

Edit: as what Fwerff said, its not only in Shanghai. This use to be the norm back in the US, a white picket fence, 2 kids, a 1 family victorian town house, the perfect family, green lawn, housewife, husband.

Andreas wrote:This whole place is one big fake experience. Now even more than let's say 10 years ago.

Family friend handed me a watch yesterday, and asked me how much I thought it cost him.

It was heavy, and said Omega on it. Looked damn nice, too.

Of course, this being China, I guessed a few hundred kwai.

Wrong! He paid 18K for it. It was real!

Damn!

Its not just Shanghainese, all chinese are. To Chinese, a home is the most important thing to own in one's life, not for oneself but for one's family. To chinese, there is no family without a house to call your own.

dr3x320 wrote: Edit: as what Fwerff said, its not only in Shanghai. This use to be the norm back in the US, a white picket fence, 2 kids, a 1 family victorian town house, the perfect family, green lawn, housewife, husband.

right, the american dream.
everywhere is like that, everyone feels more secure to own a roof over his head.

the problem is china, or shanghai/beijing in particular is, the price are blown out of proportion and ppl are still crazy about it. a decent apt can easily go over a million USD but yet its $2500 to rent. in usa it does not work like that.

at end of oct in hong kong, i was offered a preview of the new tower being put on in west kowloon, the price, was over 10k USD per sq-ft, square feet, not square meter, that's almost 10 times more expensive than a good manhattan neighborhood. are they insane? obviously not because they sold a good percentage already even on blue prints.
that makes the 1000-1500 usd per sq-ft pads off the bund look like a bargain.

jasonnoguchi wrote:To chinese, there is no family without a house to call your own.

I agree.

Women especially need things that will make them feel safe / secure. House, mariage, kid. They are like "locks" that should make their life stable. They want a house that belong to them, if someday they lose everything they still have somewhere to stay...
This I believe is also connected to the poor social welfare and benefit that one can enjoyed in case of unemployment / heath issue.
Everyone needs a roof, not only the Chinese. Government is certainly abusing of this feeling to create higher demand for housing...

binky wrote:

Andreas wrote:This whole place is one big fake experience. Now even more than let's say 10 years ago.

Family friend handed me a watch yesterday, and asked me how much I thought it cost him.

It was heavy, and said Omega on it. Looked damn nice, too.

Of course, this being China, I guessed a few hundred kwai.

Wrong! He paid 18K for it. It was real!

Damn!

From my point of view, we need to know some factors on China property market:

1) Psychology: a) Chinese wifes DEMANDS TO BUY new home before marriage. Literally- "no flat - no wedding!". b) Chinese loves to live with in big multi-generations families, "new standards of life" - min 80 sq.m apt.

2)Economics: a)for last 10 years prices rises dramatically(Sh: from 3k-5k in 2000 year to 20k-30k in 2009), hopes for future rising. b)Temporary discount for bank credit rate is 30% (default ~ 7% - now is ~5%). c) Zero TAX for buy new property. d)Temporary discount for buy second hand property, now 1.5% ,by default - 5.5%, until end of 2009. e)ZERO TAX FOR PROPERTY IN CHINA.

3)Propaganda: as government promised, here massive promotion of domestic consumption as the incentive to continue the growth of Chinese economy due export crisis. Every day, in morning news of CCTV1 said something like that: "Property prices rising everyday, Buy today and save ( Wink ), Temporary low bank credit rate is not forever, Taxes discounts programs will ended soon !!! Hurry !!! ". And it's work - pipl going crazy and BUY BUY BUY...

dr3x320 wrote:Insecurity.

One of the main reasons why people post threads or believe things like this is because they are either poor or jealous that people have something they don't. It's true that some people need something, or desire something, but I'm sure everyone on this board and this planet has that feeling. Ethiopians have a need to live and eat to survive, Some people need to buy material things to feel good about themselves, Gov. of California needs to pump iron and use drugs to enhance his body so he can feel good about himself, women need to buy shoes/bags to feel good, or get plastic surgery to look better. Students need to get that PHD/Masters/MBA to get a better job. A managerial position is what some employees strive for to feel comfortable and secure in their future.

Seems like some people are in the low rungs of the "food chain" and can't get any higher w/o criticism.

Suck it up, its how some people are. In this society of Shanghai R.E. is one of the major assets to have in order to feel secure in this city, and/or a mindset living here. If you can't adjust to it, find a place where you can adjust, for example, I know a great plot of land in the Mid-West of China that has vegetables ripe ready to be harvested.

Yea I said it. This is where Reality sets in... for some people at least.

Edit: as what Fwerff said, its not only in Shanghai. This use to be the norm back in the US, a white picket fence, 2 kids, a 1 family victorian town house, the perfect family, green lawn, housewife, husband.

deh..... Qs for u:

1. did u get plastic surgery, or get ur wife's b00b retouch job done to feel better and tougher? if not but start a thread to simply express ur opinion/confusion about it means u r insecure and jealous of others' bigger ones?

2. "If you can't adjust to it, find a place where you can adjust, for example, I know a great plot of land in the Mid-West of China that has vegetables ripe ready to be harvested"
----- r u the relative of that amusing newbie(u know who im talking about) on forum these days? if ppl simply say anything against ur opinion, then suggest them to go back to their own country or somewhere else, coz shanghai doesnt force us to be here?-- well, as u like, id say: shanghai is great and wonderful, shanghai women should DO it for the house only, afraid u'r running out of chance if they agree.

root wrote:From my point of view, we need to know some factors on China property market:

1) Psychology: a) Chinese wifes DEMAND new home before marriage. Literally- "no flat - no wedding!". b) Chinese loves to live with in big multi-generations families, "new standards of life" - min 80 sq.m apt.

2)Economics: a)for last 10 years prices rises dramatically(Sh: from 3k-5k in 2000 year to 20k-30k in 2009), hopes for future rising. b)Temporary discount for bank credit rate is 30% (default ~ 7% - now is ~5%). c) Zero TAX for buy new property. d)Temporary discount for buy second hand property, now 1.5% ,by default - 5.5%, until end of 2009. e)ZERO TAX FOR PROPERTY IN CHINA.

3)Propaganda: as government promised, here massive promotion of domestic consumption as the incentive to continue the growth of Chinese economy due export crisis. Every day, in morning news of CCTV1 said something like that: "Property prices rising everyday, Buy today and save ( ), Temporary low bank credit rate is not forever, Taxes discounts programs will ended soon !!! Hurry !!! ". And it's work - pipl going crazy and BUY BUY BUY...

well say!